I am a science teacher teaching secondary sex education and genetics

[Clairetree1]

Ever single time. Every single time. Every single time.

I am being asked how men turn into women.

I say they can't. They turn into transwomen. These are men who change their bodies to be as much like women as possible, but are still men.

Every single time I teach pregnancy I am asked how men can do it.

Every single time we go through genetics I get a shocked response for saying "this is male, this is female"

Every single time I make any distinction between male and female I am asked "are you allowed to say that?

I equate being ordered to teach that men can become woman to previous generations of teachers being ordered to teach nazi race science.

I am quite sure I will be sacked one day

Melanippe if you RTFT you would know very well I'm not a TRA. Neither is terfulike. There was a long discussion about it yesterday. There were even tears and apologies! Throwing TRA accusations around is pretty tedious and I wasn't the one who brought up bathrooms.

Floeer interesting article. Transplanting a womb into a trans woman is ethically dubious IMO and I can't see how everything else that goes with pregnancy such as the hormones etc could be replicated in a trans woman? I'm not a scientist so maybe one of the science bods on here can shed some light? But saying that if it is scientifically possible and a trans woman successfully got pregnant and had a baby it would be more blurring of the lines between binary sex and gender.

But saying that if it is scientifically possible and a trans woman successfully got pregnant and had a baby it would be more blurring of the lines between binary sex and gender.

How?

how lovely that on the one hand the word that used to simply describe my sexed body is being taken away from me and on the other hand one of the organs fairly integral to my being one of those people formerly described by that word is being eyed up for the taking.

i assume one would need a fairly young human being to die in order to take one of those organs and it still be useful but how oh how will we ever be able to tell which young dead person possess one?

Bowl your definition of the female sex:

Of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs

If a trans woman had surgery so she was able to bear offspring that does blur the lines somewhat.

I wasn't the one who brought up bathrooms.

Yes you were. First sighting of the word 'bathroom' on this thread:

daimbars Sun 10-Jun-18 15:20:41
There have been zero reported cases in the UK of trans women assaulting women in female bathrooms.

But saying that if it is scientifically possible and a trans woman successfully got pregnant and had a baby

It's not. It's science fiction.

If a trans woman had surgery so she was able to bear offspring that does blur the lines somewhat.

I'd agree it would blur the lines. It is however impossible, and will remain impossible for ever more. So we don't need concern ourselves with that particular fictional argument.

Why do all threads get derailed by TRAs from the actual discussion at hand to one about lavatories?

Because TIMs in toilets is a fixed point attractor in the dynamic system of trans debates. Well known fact.

Whatever you start out discussing, that's where you'll end up.

If a trans woman had surgery so she was able to bear offspring that does blur the lines somewhat.

Of course it doesn’t. of the sex that does the thing not of the sex that could, with a load of surgery, hormones, medical support and a c section at the end with the whole process being at grave risk to the foetus do the thing

I mean I could technically transplant antlers into someone’s scalp for long enough to survive a rutting season - doesn’t make them a stag.

Doing the thing needs to be an innate characteristics for the class.

If a transwoman had surgery to give her wings, we could call her a bird. But she wouldn't be a bird. She would remain a male human.

I'm starting to think that whole body transplant is what's needed. Or maybe it should be called brain transplant, then you genuinely could have a male brain in a female body and vice versa, and we could all go home except for the donor and probably the recipient

I mean I could technically transplant antlers into someone’s scalp for long enough to survive a rutting season - doesn’t make them a stag.

Thanks for the laugh bowl.

What I will accept is there are definitely biological differences between women and trans women. Despite these biological differences I am willing to treat a trans woman exactly the same as any other woman. What you are saying is you are unwilling to treat trans women the same as any other woman and will in fact consider her to be a man. So we won't ever reach an agreement.

You being willing to treat them the same as any other woman doesn't make them the same as any other woman

Very topical thread.

My son's biology teacher, according to my son, frequently bemoans the fact that biology is 'so heternormal'. Fairly obvious that it should be, I think.

I would treat most people on merit most of the time, Daimbars, but where we already make the distinction there seems to me much more objective reason to divide on sex than on gender.

Why do you think gender should matter more than sex, to anyone except the individual?

A tim can never be a mother, even after a womb transplant, because a man connot produce ova. Any ova, whether from transplanted ovaries of donated would genetically be someone else's.

they remain men. How we treat everyone in society should be with respect and everyone should be able to live with dignity and safely. Nobody should be afraid of dressing, ‘presenting’ or behaving in a way that’s not ‘right’ for their sex.

What I’m concerned about is how this impacts women’s rights. I can’t support a law change that WILL reduce protections for women and children.

What you are saying is you are unwilling to treat trans women the same as any other woman and will in fact consider her to be a man. So we won't ever reach an agreement.

That's about the long and the short of it really.

They are not the same as proper women though are they so why would we treat them like they are? Your own words speak volumes.

Oh here we go, back to toilets.

Toilets are a side issue if you ask me. Sport, prisons, medical care and women's refuges are more were the issue is. Imagine you are a women in a women's prison, you have to be strip searched, a trans woman is charged with searching you, you have no power whatsoever to refuse this. I have known a lot of trans women in my youth and have only ever met two, who could pass as a women. These were all young people as well, so easier to pass. Older people (sadly for them) just look and sound like men. Don't get distracted by toilets.

So we won't ever reach an agreement

But we will always be right. Trans'women' are trans-identified men. They are not women, they are men.

I could transplant a penis onto my head, technically, but it wouldn't make me a dickhead....Oh wait.....

terfulike a lesbian couple I know had one partner's eggs transplanted into the other woman's womb so the birth mother gave birth to a child which she had no genetic relationship with. But she's still their mother.

When I say always, I mean, even if the entire world is silenced, if all the biology books are burned, if science succeeds in transplanting a womb inside a man so that the man gives birth - that kind of always. Men.

Sadly there will always be racists and homophobes in the world too. Doesn't mean I'm not going to call it out when I come across it.