In reaction to the Government sex segregation Petition response, M&S are finally reconsidering their position on their sexist unsafe and undignified policy.

[OneHourTwentyFourMinutes]

I have had several discussions with M&S who were very much digging their heels in and putting male feelings ahead of sex segregation exemptions in the EA2010. I had another discussion with them today and they are finally looking at their policy again.

Please take action and message them your feminist concerns.

Further discussion www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3269463-Government-response-to-the-petition

Including links to a trans woman who admitted to throwing clothes in an aggressive act, at female staff in a woman's changing room.

PERF. Now think what it's short for. Amazing, eh?

Well see I dont exclude transmen from feminism as they are biologically female so how am I trans exclusionary?

As I said I exclude males and transwomen are male so have no place in feminism.

Do you have trouble reading Fox?

I do not exclude transmen from feminusm so how can I possibly be trans exclusionary?

I don't get why there's one rule for a certain group of people, transwomen, according to trans rights activists and, well, lots of organisations right now, that if anyone disagrees with are, in Fox's words:

Do they believe that transsexual and transgender people do not have the right to consider themselves female? They they are terfs. Quite simple really.

But when people such as Rachel Dolezal wants to consider herself black, that's not a 'right'.

I don't agree with either of the above being able to just 'consider' themselves into a reality of others.

But I don't get who makes the rules here to what's OK and what's not? (Apart from the fact I do get who generally makes the rules - aka men).

PS: Are the men on the twitter thread right now that asks ' would you date a trans person (m to f) if they’re hotter than regular women' TERFS? As I'm not seeing many personal attacks on their take downs of m to f trans people, often in much ruder and mean ways than self-identified feminists do.

Is my grandad who says 'that's not a woman' a TERF? 'Cos it's a wide umbrella of 'feminists' you're describing there if TERF really is just a descriptor, and not a slur targeted specifically at women who questions anything to do with the trans ideology!

some bloke with PhD in Woke Studies conducting interviews with your mitochondrial DNA

😂

Yeah my boys and my husband clearly also TERFS despite none of them being radical or feminists.

Complete nonsense.

I'm not excluding Trans. I want to exclude men from womens spaces.
I am a feminist, although I still haven't worked out what's so radical about being able to tell the difference between men and women.
Guess I can identify as a pef.
I'm also astral gender and like banana bread.

"Transwomen are bioligically male. "

In most cases, factually untrue.

GibbertyFlibbert

"Transwomen are bioligically male. "

In most cases, factually untrue.

eh? What does biologically male mean to you?

Sadly for you flibgib, there are only a few of you experiencing that delusion.
.

Glibberty - How can a trans woman be "trans," if she wasn't born into a male body? What does the trans mean in your definition? Can people born into female bodies that have XX chromosomes, fully functioning female reproductive systems (wombs/ovaries/etc) be "trans" women?

At the very best, a trans woman could be biologically male but functionally iatrogenically a type of intersex. In other words, a male but one who has some secondary sex characteristics associated with females due to exogenous hormone therapy and surgery.

Males do not actually become the same as females with these medical interventions - or vice versa.

Words, do they mean things? Jury's still out, apparently.

I'll go with Perf. Perfect.

One of the oddest things about current law is that transgender identified people are the only ones who are entitled by law to use whichever facilities they are comfy with.
When a new and special class of people are designated they are usually provided with their own facilities. Not transgender identified people. The laws give transgender identified people carte blanche.

thebewilderness - I agree with your sentiment.
In all this confusion it honestly sometimes feels a bit like the one group allowed to identify themselves and prioritise their dignity/privacy without any question are trans people... Like there is no debate as to what 'trans' means, but the definitions of 'male' and 'female' are fair game... Even though I thought the concept of 'transgender' is new kid on the block, and one which seems to have evolved quickly to encompass a great many things!

Some trans people think that changing what you look like does actually change your sex. So that penis inversion would literally change your biological sex. I don't know who has told them this.

It's possible though that like SMG, gibflib has no meaning for the word 'male'.

Fox, terf is a slur.

"Transwomen are bioligically male. "

In most cases, factually untrue.

Could you explain how it is factually untrue Gibb?

I am guessing they mean that some intersex people have transitioned.

"Glibberty - How can a trans woman be "trans," if she wasn't born into a male body?

Because it probably wasn't a male body - just one with some male features. Increasing it is looking as though in the majority of cases those affected are intersex with competing genetic mechanisms. For example in those who end up as female identified but with male sexual characteristics it looks as though there are female epigenetics responsible for things like brain sex then a male karyotype which promote male sexual characteristics. To say whether the body was male or female is then something of a value judgement. Personally I think if the individual promotes female characteristics it is reasonable to say that the individual is biologically female. Most of the differences caused by karyotype can be corrected. Science is pushing boundaries on that and reproduction opposite to karyotype is just around the corner. Where there is no progress is on epigenetics and brain sex. That seems to be the intrinsic part of biological sex.

This is part of the problem. The anti-trans arguments presented in the Feminism section of Mumsnet often only use school-level biology when the reality is much more complicated.

Good lord