"Ireland has had self-ID for several years with no problems"

[Macareaux]

Is this true? (The no problems bit)

They aren't afraid of assault, they just looking for validation

Sorry pratchet not tt, that would be Terry.

Pratchet has an excellent point if the only assaults we should worry our pretty little heads about are physical and exposure, staring, intimidation and other non physical intimidation aren't to be counted exactly what are transwomen worried about in male bathrooms?

We get told that we can just call the police if a girl or woman is attacked in a same sex space...well the same applies to them.

It is all about validation, otherwise they would be happy to use separate facilities for their safety.

Legalise a crime and suddenly no crimes are committed. We see the goal posts moved all the time to change reporting, so that a problem is magically lessened or disappears altogether.

There is no law against voyeurism in Ireland.

The OP asked if there had been any problems with self ID in Ireland (no) so why are people sharing negative stories about trans people in the US and Canada?

All this shows is that when cases do occur they get reported.

But nothing has happened in Ireland. Nothing.

Anyone would think you had a problem with trans people and were trying to 'prove' how dangerous they can be.

Nothing has happened to trans'women in male spaces. Nothing. All this shows is that you have a problem with women having their own private space.

Someone shared this Twitter feed on another thread. It outlines the true facts really clearly

mobile.twitter.com/lgbtld/status/1004079579747835906?s=21

Are you in Ireland @daimbars? I could tell you some worrying stories of students unions being hijacked by groups of "queers" (mostly straight men) who have been bullying young women and trying to police their language when they talk about their bodies. This is in one college in particular which I remember as a glorious bastion of radical feminism 20-odd years ago. A great number of their toilets have been redesignated gender neutral so they don't even have that space any more.

Do you really only measure this in terms of violent assault? I'm listening to young women and very worried for them.

Lol @ true facts

Pratchet point to anything in that thread that is factually incorrect?

We could start with ''the GRA needs updating'

I suspect in its attitude to women is culturally very different to the uk meaning comparisons will not necessarily translate

Have women been subject to increased levels of low level sexual intimidation and disrespect or higher levels of sexual violence? Are women changing their behaviours as a result of the changes?

Are they actually measuring this? Accurately? If not then we can say there are huge problems or no problems with equal certainty.

Having looked at such crime statistics in the past, I would say you probably need to wait 10 years for clear trends to emerge.

It was interesting that in Canada the overall levels of violence were falling strongly but sexual violence was possibly rising and at best flat. Of course there could be many reasons for that including improved reporting...or it could be that violence against women was growing

I don't care if the violence is attributed to a transperson or not. What I care about is how society is changing and if self id leads to negative changes in society.

The onus as far as I can see is for the dominant group, men, to prove that there is no increased risk to women. Not for women to prove an increased risk.

Don't raise your voice, improve your argument

Yes

Everyone do stop typing so loud

Gosh why on on earth would you want to emphasis something when people are putting words in your mouth...honestly!

We could start with ''the GRA needs updating'

Women should be seen and not heard! Preferable not seen either, honestly, might be triggering.

@midgebabe I don't think Ireland's attitude to women is"culturally very different" to the UK. Certainly there are cultural differences but we have more in common than you'd think. Sometimes the way Mumsnetters talk about the Irish like David Attenborough investigating some obscure tribe, when we're actually here in large numbers if you want to ask us anything!

angry

Yes

And when youve run out of arguments???

Tone police ....and correct grammer and punctuation obviously

Awww, SarahAr so cute:
Have you even been to Ireland? Dublin has half a million people living there. You remarks are borderline racist.

That is all you have, seriously? Straight out of the libfem textbook of deflection. Libfemmery won't make you pass, quite the opposite actually, just raises questions as to your male identification status.

And for the record, yes I have been to Dublin, and various parts of Ireland.

The OP asked if there had been any problems with self ID in Ireland (no) so why are people sharing negative stories about trans people in the US and Canada?

Daims What I have shared are examples of legal cases, reported by journalists.

The reason that they became legal cases is in itself noteworthy.

They raise a number of significant issues which I believe are important to consider. Whether they are discussed or not here would depend on the posters on the thread.

By that I mean, it would depend on which aspects of the articles people might (or not) want to comment on.

Not by someone here determining the scope of the discussion. Nor by someone here ascribing negative (& innacurate) intentions to my motivations.

And finally, definitely not by some t'interweb judge and jury mob especially one which seems to be so lacking critical thinking skills.

If there are to be changes of laws which affect society it is important to ask questions of that law.

I recommend the Nick Robinson podcasts:
'The Peter Tatchell One'
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p05qj9fv

'The Paris Lees One'
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p05xp3z2

Daimbar
To be clear, this is what I think:

I believe the majority of people have a shared expectation of what a single-sex space or service is.

If this definition is to be changed then all stakeholders in society should be aware of this and able to consider it and contribute.

This can't be restricted to people from certain age group/ identity / educational experience / user of certain social media sites/ members of political groups etc.

To do so is to disenfranchise others.

Discussion/debate needs to be respectful and nuanced.

With the regards the position that we should adopt legislation on the basis this exists in other countries.

By way of example,
(from Wikipedia)
The only countries with permissive gun legislation are: Albania, Austria, Chad, Republic of Congo, Honduras, Micronesia, Namibia, Nigeria, Pakistan, Philippines, Senegal, Tanzania, the United States, Yemen and Zambia, although several other countries like Canada and the Czech Republic, despite theoretically being restrictive, are shall-issue countries.

Yet despite Donald Trump's recent suggestion, we don't have permissive gun laws in the UK.

NB I am illustrating a principle, not comparing those advocating for for transgender rights to those who support the NRA!

The use of precedent in implementing transgender policies seems key, both in sport and elsewhere.

In most interviews I have heard by those advocating for self-id in changes for the GRA (for example) the list of countries who have already done so seems always referenced.

But we don't in other areas of legislation use this as justification.
(cf my comment above re permissive gun laws)

Re Ireland's legislation supporting people who are transgender. There is currently lobbying by some groups with regards the language which will be used in new policies and laws following the referendum supporting women's rights to abortion.
discussed:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3260503-Trans-Voices-For-Appeal-Complain-About-Together-For-Yes-Campaign