Magdalen Berns is back!

[nolongerblue]

Hoorah!

Yes, I do think that someone who is having their health (mental or physical) negatively impacted by a job they have to do to survive is more important in the here and now than the oppression of an entire class of people.

What do you think oppression is, exactly? Do you think it might impact someone's mental health?

I don't love wearing heels, but I am able to wear them without too much suffering, so I shouldn't be the priority when considering uniform requirements.

So X number of people in the office have to wear high heels at anyone time, therefore those suffering mentally get a pass, while those suffering physical and who just don't want to wear heels have to suck it up?

Why is there a priority when wearing clothes for work?

I think it was a smart move for a women to use trans right to get out a sexist dress code, but stop pretending that it's fair that trans get to choose what to wear when women can't.

hipster it wouldn't be me making that decision, unless I was the HR person in charge of that. I'd expect any individual who had a problem with the uniform requirements of a job to apply for an allowance (the way Ash did) and that those applications are assessed on need.

Perhaps if all the other women at the workplace where Ash works put in a complaint about sexist dress-codes then it would change for everyone, but Ash had a more pressing reason (her uniform caused her to experience dysphoria) than just sexism.

Angry I didn't specify trans people, I would defer to anyone who had a more pressing need than me to wear different uniform or have different adjustments at work. This could be due to trans status, physical disability, mental health conditions. I just think that in that instance, my "I just don't really like wearing the uniform even though I can and it causes me no/only minor issues" should take a back seat.

Clearly, my comfort in that situation does matter, but less than someone else's actual health.

Heels aren't good for anyone's health.

And if Ash really had such a pressing need that was far more pressing than the other women who hate having to perform femininity in order to keep their jobs she wouldn't have been able to manage 4 years of doing just that.

Again, you don't get to sign away the rights of women as a group just because you feel sorry for this particular person and have entirely bought into their narrative.

dragons Sure if you view the things as oppression. For example, I like wearing dresses, I'd choose to wear a dress even, it's not oppressive to me.

So for me working somewhere that required I wear a dress or skirt wouldn't impact my mental health, and someone who did have their mental health impacted by that should have more of a say than someone who didn't.

Listen to the people who are suffering the most in a given situation, and someone who has to dissociate in order to get through a work day is clearly suffering more than someone who is quite happy wearing a skirt but might prefer trousers that day.

Again, you are not women as a group and do not have a right to speak for the rest of us. I'm not sure how many different ways there are to say this, we could try French or Spanish if that would help?

Angry depends on the heels I guess, I get crippling foot pain in totally flat shoes and the low heels I got for work actually made it so I could make it through the day. I don't really enjoy wearing them because they make me feel awkward (I walk a bit weird) but they are a necessary evil to enable me to do my job.

Probably different if you're looking at crazy high heels, never tried them tbh as I can't walk at all in them.

I don't know how Ash did 4 years there, people are pretty strong, but also anxiety is a hell of a barrier. This required her to come out at work, which is no easy thing in America.

How is this signing away anyone else's rights, the rights belong to anyone who feels they have a pressing need of an adjustment to a workplace rule, this could be any employee of any sex or gender.

Ash felt the reason she needed the adjustment was because of her dysphoria and worsening mental health, so she used that as a reason on the form. I assume if she felt her need was due to sexism she would have said that, although perhaps she would have received a different response from HR.

Perhaps that is the issue here? Why she had to use her trans identity, not why she did? The legitimacy of sexism as a reason for reasonable adjustments at work.

Listen to the people who are suffering the most in a given situation

Those who say they are. If you can’t quantify objectively, you can’t make a meaningful comparison; surely you can see there may potentially be a problem there?

Magdalen pointed that out in the video...

Fixing the sexism inherent in the rules would fix things for everyone. Fixing things for people who find a loophole allowing them to lodge a complaint that HR have to take seriously is a self centered, individualistic approach.

Class analysis, it's what's for breakfast, lunch, and dinner!

Angry I am not speaking for women as a group, I am saying women who are suffering at work have the same rights as anyone else suffering as work, and are required to provide the same evidence of this suffering as anyone else.

You seem quite happy to defend broad generalisations of trans people literally ALL the time on this board though.

Never mind if Ash makes a ton of money, she MIGHT do, so let's act like she does, see she extorts money from children.

Oh she experiences dysphoria from her breasts so wants to have them removed, clearly that means she is encouraging teenage girls to mutilate themselves.

She chose to list the reason for needing special considerations at work as her dysphoria caused by her uniform, let's accuse her of not fighting sexism even though it wasn't the issue that was causing her the most problems.

A woman working with Ash who felt the sexist uniform policy was causing her stress or hardship could go through the exact same process as Ash did and could get the same allowances as Ash did. How is this in any way removing the rights of women in that workplace?

I still think bloody fruit tea is an abomination of disappointed expectations.

hipster Why would I know better than someone else how they feel? It is up to me to put forward a compelling case for my suffering being greater if I believe it is, and then whoever decides on policies has to judge that.

Angry But why is Ash responsible for that? For her, all that matters is being able to do her job without too much pain and suffering, so she followed the process to enable her to do that. The same way anyone working there could do.

Perhaps if the company get enough individual complaints, they'll find it easier to just change the policy altogether.

Do you think Ash should have just written to HR and asked them to change the uniform policy for everyone? Do you think her one voice would have achieved that? Would it have changed anything for her?

Sometimes you have to act for yourself, because you are the one having to do the job. It's not selfishness, it's self-preservation.

Glad you cleared that up, loops.
Discriminatory against women who suffer physically and emotionally but quite clear.

A woman claiming sexism was causing her hardship would have been told to deal with it or get a new job, which is no doubt the reason that Ash took the trans angle instead.

If you don't agree with the feminist approach to dealing with sexism (collective action, acknowledgement that sexism inherently causes hardship to women as a group) then it's unlikely that anything I say will convince you, but surely you must be aware that taking that tack on a board called "women's rights" is likely to result in feminists disagreeing with you.

"Well I like wearing dresses" as a response to that is just more of the same self focused, lacking in class analysis blather.

Light And I would agree with you, unless it's peach iced tea which I find oddly refreshing.

Why would I know better than someone else how they feel? It is up to me to put forward a compelling case for my suffering being greater if I believe it is, and then whoever decides on policies has to judge that.

Why do you think it is a competition to keep the others down while you get relief?

I object! Some fruit tea is lovely, it just needs to be brewed strong.

A woman working with Ash who felt the sexist uniform policy was causing her stress or hardship could go through the exact same process as Ash did and could get the same allowances as Ash did.

As if.

I think Ash has been the beneficiary of trans privilege in this case.

Rhubarb... now that's a tea to be reckoned with.

I'm mostly rolling my eyes at the idea that sexist dress codes only cause harm to certain special people. "Cis" women shouldn't mind, right?

I have one that has all kinds of berries including elderberries plus hibiscus that's delicious (and will stain anything you spill it on).

Angry I absolutely agree that collective action is the way to make changes happen at a root level. But again, in America, many workplaces don't allow unionisation or any form of collective action. Until that changes (and I don't know how it will without collective action) it's individuals having to make the best of things in their jobs.

Saying Ash should have tried to change the inherent sexism is great, and I'm sure she wishes she could do that, but it ignores all the barriers within employment in America that would enable that to even slightly happen.

So Ash did what she had to do to enable herself to continue working. Then she made a video with a 'how to' for anyone in a similar situation.

And my "I like wearing dresses" example is to show that not everything is going to oppress everyone, and so not everyone is going to have their mental health negatively impacted by that thing. This obviously doesn't mean women as a class are not oppressed by sexist dress-codes or that oppression doesn't negatively impact mental health.

Why would I know better than someone else how they feel? It is up to me to put forward a compelling case for my suffering being greater if I believe it is, and then whoever decides on policies has to judge that.

That sounds like tons of workplace fun.

Are we doing that tea thing?

Tea is definitely more fun than trying to explain the concept that no, actually, some people aren't inherently more important than others.

Tea (caffeine having kind) makes you feel alert and aware. Queer theory turns your brain into mush.