Are there any bad men in the Handmaid's Tale

[Pratchet]

Nick: lovely rescuer
Commander: offered friendship, acted pained, tried to explain
(Wife: narsty caah)
Van driver: lovely rescuer
Pilot: lovely rescuer
Econohusband: lovely rescuer
(Econo wife: mean and didn't wasn't to help)
Those foreign visitors at the end of season one - man tried to help, woman refused
Clinic assistant male: gave her key to escape

I don't want to spoil anything for anyone who isn't watching on the US schedule (episode 8 just aired there), but things do get much more complicated as the series goes on.

I even felt myself growing to feel sorry for Serena, and the commander has become a lot worse.

Battleax I do know, but not sure if that's aired in the UK yet.

ThisisSparta Don’t be sorry, it’s no ones fault except slightly my own for being trusting and the guy who did it. Thank
You though.

differentnameforthis I think that’s a bit harsh really. Given the whole basis of the show and his life being on the line, he had to do it and she seemed more than willing. Due to being brainwashed obviously but still willing and each basically doing their role. He clearly didn’t want to though.

Pratchet Shit, was my comment a spoiler? If it is I can have it removed.

If Nick didn't sleep with his wife, he'd be strung up as a homosexual. His wife would have seen to it, because she wants to be pregnant.

In the uk we are at episode 3

See I’m confused at times because I’m in the uk, watching on sky and only a day behind America.

I found the book to be an awful lot about how big the role of collaborators was rather than those in power. It annoyed me, though I on reflection I do think that it is seriously important to consider the role of collaborators in historical events.

That's what I like most about the book.

No evil dictatorship can survive without collaborators, the Mitläufer.

That's why some of the most striking and shocking political moments on film, are the fall of dictators: Ceaucescu, Saddam, Gadafi - the shock, the disbelief as it dawns on them that their power is gone. They've always been able to rely on the collaborators and suddenly they're not there anymore. Their power is revealed to be completely and totally dependent on everyone else around them. When everyone else decides to withdraw their compliance, they're finished, as though the power was never really there. It's an awesome sight to witness, in the true sense of the word.

It's a mystery as to how we can fix it, so that everyone else doesn't comply in the first place. I think that's a large part of what the book is examining. We don't yet know how we can raise a population that can be trusted not to comply with wicked dictatorships. It's well worth obsessing on.

Battleax I do know, but not sure if that's aired in the UK yet.

Ah, sorry, I assumed that’s what was being referenced with “child rapist”.

I almost want a thread for this show running at the American time, cause it's just so intense!

Battle No worries, I'm always very wary of accidentally spoiling so I'm weirdly overcautious

Episode 8 on in Ireland tonight!! I’ve just realised that we’re ahead so things might be a bit clearer to me too. Sorry.
The OPs viewpoint might have been more pronounced earlier in the series definately. There were a lot of men hero’s at the start.

Slanetylor That’s where I’m watching it. On RTE. I’m in the north though.

loopsdefruit There is another thread that is with American timing.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/telly_addicts/3239228-Handmaids-Tale-Season-2-SPOILERS-VIEWING-AHEAD-OF-UK-SREENING

The OPs viewpoint might have been more pronounced earlier in the series definately. There were a lot of men hero’s at the start

I've not even started the second series and I get where the OP was coming from even on the basis of the first series alone. It's a whole lot less nuanced than the book (for obvious reasons, not least not being in the protagonist's head ) and then after it I saw men calling Rad Fems who didn't agree with them on the trans issue "Aunt Lydia" and posting gifs of the stoning scene.

This is the impression they were walking with from the 1st series, never having read the book.

AuntLydia, I think it bothered me because it seemed a bit blame-y towards the collaborators when I really saw them simply as victims too - obviously not a particularly nuanced view. That said, I read it straight out of uni when I'd spent my life up to that point obsessing about science, to the neglect of any serious understanding of modern history. In my defence, I'm trying to learn!

I think with the series they are certainly getting the point across that the violence and cruelty of the collaborators is no less horrific for the handmaidens simply because the collaborators themselves are victims too. That's what I took from the murder of the former Wife (sorry can't remember the names). It would, however, be good to see some of the collaborator men get some comeuppance too.

@QuackPorridgeBacon "she seemed more than willing" Still rape. She can't consent.

He clearly didn’t want to though. But he still did.

If Nick didn't sleep with his wife, he'd be strung up as a homosexual. His wife would have seen to it, because she wants to be pregnant. Still doesn't make him a "lovely rescuer" does it? I know it's only a TV show, but it's still rape.

I even felt myself growing to feel sorry for Serena, Yeah, I felt a pang too, with her back story. Then remembered she held down women for her husband to rape.

In the uk we are at episode 3 Apologies, I didn't mean to start off spoilers. We are way ahead here is Oz.

Did you not read all of my comments... I’m aware it’s rape. I’m not stupid. But death or having sex with someone who understands that’s what’s needed and willing regardless of age (as that doesn’t seem to matter in gilead) is a no brainier when he has a woman to be around for and a baby that is his. When that woman asks you to do what you have to do because she is terrified and has no power of her own and doesn’t want to be alone, the you do what’s necessary to stay alive, right? He is a rescuer of sorts, he’s also stuck in this crappy regime and cannot just walk away. Not everything is black and white but if you view it that way you aren’t getting the full experience of emotions from the show.

In some cultures, 15 is viable. Women wouldn't be fertile if there wasn't a reason for it.

Like you said, it's still rape.

Women wouldn't be fertile if there wasn't a reason for it. I really don't want your comment to mean what it does. The implications are awful. So GIRLS are fertile at 10, some younger....

In some cultures, 15 is viable.

What do you mean by viable?! I hope you mean "considered old enough to make their own decision and consent" rather than "fair game".

It’s clear what she meant. Basically in some cultures 15 is of age and child bearing is seen as ok. I think for most girls by 15 the pelvis is finished developing. It’s 16 on average though isn’t it?

In our culture, 15 is too young because we have much higher expectations for self sufficiency and adulthood. A woman who becomes a mother at 15 or 16 is going to be at an economic disadvantage.

In other cultures, you're ready for adulthood earlier because there's no need for A-levels and university in order to pull your own weight participating in hunting and gathering or agrarian systems.

Obviously, Gilead is a fucked-up society and keeping females ignorant and dependent is a huge part of the way they operate.

But there is nothing inherently wrong with women bearing children once they're fertile. The many millions of people around the world, throughout history, who have partnered with 15-year-olds were not necessarily "rapists."

Apart from the increased risks of maternal death and preterm labour and totally ignoring social implications regarding women’s rights yeah... nowt wrong with it! 🙄

I watched the first series, and I think fear drives aunt Lydia. I do think she cares about the girls, but she cares about herself more. She has authority over them, but the men are always in the background. If she lets them step out of line, she's done. She can't take any shit at all, her position relies on total control. I actually dislike the wives more, they have more opportunity to show kindness to the handmaids but don't. Most of them seem to have become quite twisted with bitterness, jealousy and false superiority. I wonder if the aunts or marthas are ever raped?

It seemed quite clear to me that the men were running the show. Trying to work out to catch up on season 2 now.

It’s 16 on average though isn’t it?

14 in some European countries.....

I agree with you Quack that it’s interesting and illuminating to consider the coerced behaviour alongside the small (and not so small) rebellions.