Where do we draw the trans line....?

[loveyouradvice]

Really interesting reading all the Daily Mail comments on latest Man Friday article.... most seemed quite happy with the idea of transsexuals using women's facilities, but no transwomen with dangly bits.

This used to be my position - and may still be so... but I am really concerned the more I read about certain transsexuals (the previously macho late-transitioning type).... those with rampant AGP which leads them to fetishise women's bodies and being in women's spaces in a very mansplainy way.... I feel very squeamish about sharing space with them.... and was deeply shocked by learning that some comb bins for used tampons and pads and wear them to "feel more like a woman" and then celebrate and share this online with other fetishists.....

My suspicion is that for the sake of what one might see as the transsexuals we have long shared space with, out of courtesy and respect, that yes it is okay for them to be in some women's spaces .... But my concern is that with TRAs being so active and the transgender movement steamrollering ahead, that more of the aggressive AGP type are going to feel liberated to come out of the closet and into our spaces....and the balance will shift

I know this is just academic - given that focussing on No Self-Id is our priority - but would be very interested in hearing what other's think as I try to clarify my own position

But it still ain't rape!

Apologies, I may have been on the Germaine Greer thread for too long. I seem have forgotten whether I am....

No. I don't think you can say that these days! Arthur and Martha have been placed beyond the Pale, I suspect!

@CuriousaboutSamphire when a man does it it's rape when a woman forces sex upon a man or another woman it isn't

That's a breech of human rights, international law and at a minimum is discrimination against gender

I can't say I've ever used them myself, are they for the 'new modern woman'?

Oh, no! Wax disks are gender inclusive. Report yourself!

Hey, truscum! Nice to see you. Always good to see / hear the voice of sanity.

Bowl, if only. A bit like Little Jack Horner I reached into my handbag for my pass and came out with it, dripping in fresh marmalade. The guard said "erm, that's ok." So then I legged it to the ladies' (hope that term isn't too triggering) to wash my hand.

Thankfully, I was only on the panel and didn't have to present. I'm still scarred by the memory.

Looks like we'll have to wait until tomorrow for the next instalment...

As you were.

I know! And it was just starting to get good.

Stop @ ing me! It's rally bloody annoying. You are needlessly filling up my in box (if that ain't triggering snurggggh )

I can read my name in bold thanks!

And you are wrong. Wrong, wrong wrongeddy wrong!

Hey TerfsUp

*when a man does it it's rape when a woman forces sex upon a man or another woman it isn't

That's a breech of human rights, international law and at a minimum is discrimination against gender*

Sorry, did you really say you were an expert in law?

"You are a bullying misogynist. Trans identified males with GRC are biologically male"

Hate speech and again intended to cause distress and upset

Also a personal attack and mumsnet allow this kind of behaviour, personal attacks against other members get punished but not against the trans community

I have reported this

All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination

I am guessing that Twitter account is a bit busy reporting all of our nasty posts. Or did that disappear up its own fundament too?

Bored now!

Work seems more appealing, somehow!

All these people stropping about, screaming abuse and threatening suicide (no, I am not downplaying suicide at all. But it is being used like a weapon currently and it is extremely irresponsible to do so) because strangers won’t accept them for what they want to be.

You're so right, Tru. It's pathologically controlling. They can't force us to believe they are women. This is not female socialised behaviour. It's male dominance.

This transgender topic is spiralling somewhat.

It would be easier to have all public unisex toilets and have cleaning attendants in them all the time (helps a bit with employment but also keeps a dirty place clean). The attendants would also be able to make sure the toilets are a safe place for all.

As for used sanitary ware - I think it should always go into a sealed container (locked). Hygiene/preventing over spillage etc. And anyone digging it out actually needs psychological help (not being mean, but that is quite disturbing).

However, the spiralling part comes with the 'identifying as' culture. I think that is a whole load of crap. You are either one or the other. If you are pre op you are still the gender you were born into (even a man with tits). If you don't have the op (and don't intend to have it) then no amount of make up and skirts will cut it (assuming you are man wanting to be woman) you are still your biological gender. Now that may be me being pig headed...........but where is the line drawn with say sport....a man identifies as a woman and is running say the London marathon for the 1st prize but is not actually a woman, will have an unfair advantage.

So let's keep it simple. Unless you have nuts and plonker via biologically or had surgery you are a man

If you have a flower biologically or had surgery you are a woman.

Anything in between that 'identifies' or 'feels like' - basically does not have the suggested 'bits' then is still their biological gender. There is too much grey area in between to patrol this.

In an ideal world we could all be whatever we wanted, unicorns, sausages, attack helicopters...but we are not in an ideal world and never will be.

This that feel there is too much presidium in the world maybe right but are equally predicted towards those who have a different opinion to theirs. Right or wrong. People have to accept that not everyone will accept.

"All these people stropping about, screaming abuse and threatening suicide (no, I am not downplaying suicide at all. But it is being used like a weapon currently and it is extremely irresponsible to do so) because strangers won’t accept them for what they want to be."

Years ago I volunteered in a Yahoo group to help suicidal trans people. I would often spend hours passing the time with people until the crisis passed. In some cases, talk didn't work and I had to get ambulances sent. I haven't seen recent statistics but at that time the estimate was that anywhere between 30% and 60% of trans people would make at least one suicide attempt. Hopefully it has come down as society has become more tolerant but if the hostility I am seeing on MumsNet becomes the norm, it will surely grow again.

Please don't make light of the problem of suicide or underestimate how badly the misgendering and hostility we are seeing here might affect people.

Hate speech and again intended to cause distress and upset

It's not intended to cause distress. It's a statement of biological fact. As a survivor of domestic abuse I find this abusive controlling behaviour distressing.

Please don't make light of the problem of suicide or underestimate how badly the misgendering and hostility we are seeing here might affect people.

This is emotional blackmail. You cannot control other people's thoughts and speech with suicide threats. This has happened to me. It is a manipulative tactic. Look up the Duluth Model of power and control.

And as for hostility, you need to think about the effects of transgender ideology on women.

It's not intended to cause distress.It is causing distress and is unlawful

Sorry gibberty but nobody here, even inth post you quote, downplay suicide.

There is a major difference in that TRAs come here to goad. They can stop any time they like. That and you really don't know if anyone is what they present themselves as....

Also, what you are telling us is that we must revert to our genderised stereotype and play nice! Not going to happen on a board where women gather to speak freely about womens issues. This is one of the places we come to be who we are without those shackles!

And nobody, man, woman or child, is going to stop that from happening, here or in real life. Especially not by asking us to play up to the patriarchal stereotype that is the root cause of the issues under discussion!

It's not possible to change your biological sex. Born a male, die a male.

J4nice has now just filled this thread with threats, accusations and misogyny. It wouldn't surprise me if it's zapped.

I’m also misgendering myself with my username. And miss classing myself, as I am not in fact, a baronet.

I notice you skipped the bit about how distressed you are making me feel as a victim of DV by trying to control me, J4nice. Cuts both ways.