ManFriday article in the Daily Mail

[flowersonthepiano]

Good coverage of ManFriday at the Hampstead ponds - including supportive comments from Debbie Hayton, and not so supportive (stop being silly wimmin) comments from Jane Fae
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5796701/Hampstead-ponds-row-continues-transgender-demands-going-far.html

Sarah,
I do take your point but the notion of self-identification seems to have changed the trans culture in an unpleasant way.

Anyway, good that you agree there is a debate to be had. I think there is too. The idea of no debate was a bad thing.

Tbf, the Daily Mail has gone up in my estimation ever since this whole self-Id things kicked off.

The Guardian has gone right down

Given everything we know about the Guardian and the Daily Mail, perhaps the Guardian has got it right? Or who knows. Perhaps this is the Daily Mail's once in twenty years Stephen Lawrence moment - the one campaign which continues to cancel out year on year racism, mostly recently against migrants.

When your allies are the DM, the Catholic Church and David Davies MP - you have to seriously consider if your views are correct.

SarahAr you seem very certain on what wil and won’t be allowed if the GRA changes. I think many of us would feel differently if it was clear that self-Id will not allow men who self ID into female sex segregated spaces. Perhaps you could share your source on that so we can read it for ourselves? Or perhaps you believe TWAW and therefore they won’t be men identifying into female sex spaces as they’re it men they’re women?

In fact I hope you don't mind but I have screenshotted your post and will print it out and put it on the wall as the first example I have ever seen of ANY transactivist admitting that there might be a valid concern about self identified men having a legal right to enter women's spaces as per the EA 2010.

SarahAr

There is a debate to be had over whether giving self-identifying men the legal right to enter sex segregated spaces is a good thing. There is no debate to be had over whether the government's proposed reforms would enable this - they won't.

Did you see Debbie's point upthread about sef-ID moving cultural norms so that it becomes expected to see someone of the opposite sex (but of the same self-ID gender) in single-sex spaces?

This is the crux of the matter. This is already occuring, ahead of the law. Shon Fae stated (in that long interview with the Libfem Ash after the genderquake debate) that was the aim of self-ID, to codify into law that this is socially acceptable.

It won’t allow Men in? What like Girl Guides you mean ? Stop lying SarahAr, orgs are pre-empting the new GRA and already ARE allowing self-id, but only for Males it seems.

The Guardian has gone right down

I thought the recent Guardian article about how best to support pupils had balance. The comments underneath showed a breadth of views too.
www.theguardian.com/education/2018/may/15/transgender-row-teachers-afraid-challenge-breast-binding

It's worrying, having read the article, that some TRAs have lobbied to shut down the crowdfunder for Transgender Trend School's pack.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3265524-Transgender-Trend-Crowdfunder-suspended

And Trans rights orgs are wanting to remove all single sex exclusions under the equality act, which is nice 🙄

That's an excellent article. And I also salute the bravery of our ManFriday activists. Most of us couldn't do what you're doing.

Did you see Debbie's point upthread about sef-ID moving cultural norms so that it becomes expected to see someone of the opposite sex (but of the same self-ID gender) in single-sex spaces?

Women have made this point over and over to Sarah on this board. Sarah is aware.

“When your allies are the DM, the Catholic Church and David Davies MP - you have to seriously consider if your views are correct.”

Absolutely fair point and I do wonder about this.
I think that -unfortunately-people campaigning for trans rights with the best of intentions forgot that there was another, larger, disadvantaged group.because this group is always there it doesn’t come into public focus in the way a colourful minority does.

Whoever spread the idea that wondering about the impact on women and girls was “erasing” or being violent has a lot to answer for.

Did you see Debbie's point upthread about sef-ID moving cultural norms so that it becomes expected to see someone of the opposite sex (but of the same self-ID gender) in single-sex spaces?

Women have made this point over and over to Sarah on this board. Sarah is aware.

I assumed as much. But some people are more open to the voices of transwomen than those of women...

@Poppyred85 I am definitely one of the boys today!

Link to the petition:
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

“some people are more open to the voices of transwomen than those of women”

Definitely.

That was a really good article.

I thought Debbie spoke a lot of sense.

Sending out the batsignal - @DebbieinBirmingham (is that right?)

This is a great example of the misleading and vociferous campaign against transgender people in the (far) right wing press. And also of the misleading aims of Man Friday.

The proposed changes to the GRA will not give self-identifying men (or even self-identifying transwomen) the legal right to enter sex segregated spaces.

There is a debate to be had over whether giving self-identifying men the legal right to enter sex segregated spaces is a good thing. There is no debate to be had over whether the government's proposed reforms would enable this - they won't.

Women in refuges getting abused by men, and having to take lawsuits out against the refuge not enough for you?
Women in prisons getting abused by men and having to take lawsuits out against the state not enough for you?
Women and girls being filmed and abused in 'gender neutral' changing rooms not enough for you?

What will it take before you concede that women and girls are in danger from men and self ID will only make it worse?

Just how many women and girls have to suffer or be at risk before you admit that there is a risk here?

Or do you just not give a shiny shit about women and girls in any way?

When your allies are the DM, the Catholic Church and David Davies MP - you have to seriously consider if your views are correct.

Allies of women's rights in this debate also include The Morning Star, The New Statesman, far left women (and men) and liberals and centrists.

On the other hand, when those on your side of the argument include people saying it's ok to be violent against others based on their political views, actually being violent against women, and suggesting that lesbians are bigots if they don't sleep with people with penises maybe you should reconsider your position?

And if the DM, The Catholic Church and DD MP have a stronger stance on women's rights - including the right to even discuss them - than you, maybe you need to be asking yourself why that is, not pointing the finger at them?

ManFriday isn't about the GRA so it's annoying that it's always brought up.

It's about keeping female (/male) spaces female (/male) only. Because this is not happening right now.

Given everything we know about the Guardian and the Daily Mail, perhaps the Guardian has got it right?

So the Guardian was right to vociferously support the invasion of Iraq? What about supporting the "some cuts are ok" austerity-lite proposed by Ed Miliband? What about sex pozzie promotion of prostitution of sex work? What about PIE all those years ago? It supported PIE in the name of gay liberation and refused to countenance PIE was an infiltration group nothing to do with the cause of gay rights.

The Grauniad is not a left wing newspaper. It is a middle class liberal outfit that has always supported neoliberalism and still does with regard to transactivism, which is a neoliberal ideology. Nothing left wing about transactivism whatsoever.

The Mail might well be a right wing shit rag but it prints the occasional good and balanced article - such as this one. But the Mail being a right wing shit rag doesn't make the Grauniad a bastion of left wing thought, feminism or socialism. Because it isn't.

I assumed as much. But some people are more open to the voices of transwomen than those of women...

YY. But I do appreciate Debbie making the point.

What Lang said.

Just saw this on twitter. Seems very relevant to this thread.

That's brilliant

@R0wantrees who measures the women and girls who may have quietly stopped participating? Inclusion policies need to balance the needs of all to participate in sports

I was at WPUK Newcastle and at the pub afterwards it turned out that LOADS of us were Turkish Bath veterans and really missed that sex-segregated relaxation and socialisation space. We didn't have to keep our tops on the way women de facto (if not de jure) have to in mixed spaces and it made the heat more effective because it could directly reach more of my skin. Since then, I've never been alone to a sauna or a steam room or a turkish suite since, because I can't find a sex-segregated one and I don't feel safe going alone to a mixed one. I live on my own and so going with someone else is actually quite hard.

@SarahAr: the current law allows the use of partial exemption to define spaces for biological females and GRC-holding biological males as well as full exemption to define spaces for biological females only. Under self-id, we will no longer be able to trust the partial exemption to keep us safe from fakers whilst still allowing males with a GD diagnosis into the space. Because the TRAs like pressuring businesses into treating TIMs as females, few will be willing to take the risk of a lawsuit and will either capitulate and use self-id or just go mixed. All spaces with males in are de facto male spaces where females are not safe and have to be constantly vigilant: just what you don't want in a turkish bath, sauna, or steam room. Also, at WPUK, one of the Guide leaders said at the end of the meeting that she'd been at some kind of briefing session earlier in the week about gender identity and one of the speakers/trainers had told her that once the GRA has been changed, they will go after the same-sex exemptions in the EA next.