How do we scourge out racism and classism in feminism?

[Treesybreezy]

I need to apologize upfront - I am disabled and also looking after a baby so I'm not going to be able to check back on this thread as frequently as I'd like. I will be back tho.

I've just read this by sister outrider sisteroutrider.wordpress.com/2018/01/15/dispatches-from-the-margins-on-women-race-and-class/amp/?__twitter_impression=true . I know there have been other threads where black women (or other ethnicities) have said, racism is a massive problem and there's been a large, reflexive defensive reaction from white women here.

I'm too tired to articulate this properly now in support of what sister outrider has said, but I've definitely seen both racism and classism in action.

How do we set this right?

We need to scourge our racism and classism everywhere.

But what we shouldn’t insist that every aspect of every cause must at all times be in harmony with each and every other cause.

That is the way of the Judean People’s Front.

I think middle class white people trying to solve racism and class prejudice is likely to lead to misguided tokenism the way "woke" politics often does and is like men trying to solve misogyny. In the same way that women have to be the main people countering mysogyny so those affected by race and class prejudice have to be the main ones opposing it and suggesting solutions.
Expecting white middle class feminists to have the answer is unrealistic and perpetuating the problem.

The whole #WPUK debacle once again reinforces the idea that campaigners who ostensibly argue for free speech don’t in fact want free speech.

OP, while I agree with you in your wish to fight classism and racism, I take issue with any attempt to no platform the process of discussion.

And in this instance, that discussion is a massive side track and own goal.

I think one of the first things to recognise is that both conversations (online) about race and class are dominated by perspectives from a) the middle class b) men c) academics and d) people from the US.

This flavours those discussions but is rarely acknowledged. The fact is that most voices outside of those groups are left outside of the conversation and policing the conversation and shaming/refusing voices instead of engaging them is one way that is done.

I'm not offering a solution to that, just noticing it.

Token gestures aren't needed what is needed is space and genuine welcoming into feminist spaces. Some voices are listened to more than others. Sometimes when people from working class backgrounds try to join in there shut down.

Our voices have less weight because we don't look like or sound like or behave like the white middle upwards classes.

Exactly Mist.

I guess... I don't think that only middle class white women have the solution. But I don't think we should be passive? Why are we relying on the labour of others to point out problems they face, that we cause? We have eyes,ears, brains. (A bit like all those 'my DH doesn't see housework threads).

Maybe a lot more active listening? To start with?

I didn't always used to be middle class. I can see the extra power it gives me in society. I

"But I don't think we should be passive? Why are we relying on the labour of others to point out problems they face, that we cause? "

This. It always amazes me when a group so good at seeing structural inequality when it comes to one issue can be so blind to it in other issues.

Treesy I'm not saying that middle class women shouldn't be included in the discussion just pointing out some of the groups who are usually excluded.

@peakpants, yes totally agree

I think active listening is a really good start.

People seem to hate the word privilege but it's there in different ways. In terms of living up to expectations I think middle class white women have pressures that go unchecked and they don't even see the system at play in that. I have no idea if that's accurate btw its just something I've witnessed as an outsider.

Part of me wants to ask 'why don't you like us?' To the middle class white feminists but tbh I just think class/race/religion creates this natural ingrained superiority and they don't even notice they don't like what's not them.

I don't think it's specifically middle class women that need calling out. I've not noticed their voices being particularly paid attention to either, in the great scheme of things.

Middle class is a strange term to use now. I was born in a very poor family in the North East, and my education was shite. However, through being a cheeky fucker I’ve managed to get on and now work with the privately educated largely, although lots of people do share their working class credibility. I guess for all intents and purposes I appear middle class, but it’s learned behaviour, if I talked the way my family do I would sound like Cheryl Cole. I have simply absorbed the trappings of a metropolitan London life.

I haven’t lost my understanding of my background in poverty and difficulty and my family still live it, close family. I still loathe the precariat nature of work enforced on the working class that I grew up with and I see getting worse. I really want to do something about it and I have and do when the situation arises. But I’m a privileged white feminist. Can I speak about it here? I may sound too posh and knowledgeable and accidentally offend with my privilege as it has become a stick we must beat ourselves with. I know a lot of women like this. We still have our roots.

I do talk like Cheryl Cole and am proud of being a northerner. I am seen as middle class while I reject the label and see myself as working class. My family were all working class and while there is only my sister and I left now we are proud of our parents and proud of our roots. She like me growls at the idea of being middle class.

We need to get rid of the class system in this country, it's an anachronism and pushes people down then labels them.

spontaneousgiventime

We do.

It is a fact that 'polite discussion' is done in a middle class vocabulary and tone that can be very exclusive. I mean that is partly the point of it isn't it, to be exclusive. That can include accents (West Country here) but extends beyond voices to clothes (who looks the part), available cash (e.g. the cost of attending conferences where networking is done and ideas are shared), jobs (management class vs worker, who is involved in decision making, internships) etc, contacts (esp through family and family friends). I don't think middle class women should be singled out but I don't think it can be denied that even in discussion of class and race, white and middle class voices are way more likely to be heard than BME and working class voices.

It needs politely pointing out whenever we see it, and honest reflection as to whether we are doing it.

I am not classist or racist, but I undoubtedly say insensitive ignorant things because of privilege. I need someone to tell me if I step out of line, and I need to accept that maybe I am out of order and need to change.

Its a funny old thing racism. My now dead FIL was a refugee from Poland, spent years in two concentration camps. A victim of an horrendous racist. His whole family murdered.

He refused point blank to vote for anyone not white.

Yes Picassos, I have known people from very similar backgrounds (also refugees here from that time) who had shocking opinions about modern day refugees. They still had a lot to offer in terms of recounting history and their experiences, they just didnt join those dots.

It is a fact that 'polite discussion' is done in a middle class vocabulary and tone that can be very exclusive.

Yes, it is.

Agree with Picklemepopcorn