How do we scourge out racism and classism in feminism?

[Treesybreezy]

I need to apologize upfront - I am disabled and also looking after a baby so I'm not going to be able to check back on this thread as frequently as I'd like. I will be back tho.

I've just read this by sister outrider sisteroutrider.wordpress.com/2018/01/15/dispatches-from-the-margins-on-women-race-and-class/amp/?__twitter_impression=true . I know there have been other threads where black women (or other ethnicities) have said, racism is a massive problem and there's been a large, reflexive defensive reaction from white women here.

I'm too tired to articulate this properly now in support of what sister outrider has said, but I've definitely seen both racism and classism in action.

How do we set this right?

Why do people spam like this? Serves me right for asking for links I suppose.

It's probably worth repeating, anti-trans is not the same as gender critical feminism.

"The right-wingers, David Davis, and the Christians are not gender-critical in the slightest. They would laugh in your face if you said gender was socially constructed in order to oppress women. "

Davies.

"I just cannot see how anyone could want to join forces with them when much of what they say is so extremely anti-feminist. Aren't you hugely undermining your own argument there? Yes, the end result might be that self-ID is not enacted. Yes, the end result might be that self-ID is not enacted. However, once that is over, you will realise that life with right-wingers is not a bed of roses and the issues that have been overlooked in the quest for opposing self-ID suddenly become much more apparent again."

I didn't follow this argument. It's a campaign, you agree on that issue, you move on. Not sure your point here really.

There is plenty of bipartisan legislation. It's nonsense to suggest that because you are teaming up with, say, Davies on one issue, that you are also want to reduce the abortion limit to 12 weeks (as he does).

Makes no sense.

PeakPants

Which meetings have you been to PeakPants. What first hand knowledge do you have of these meetings women are having? Please share as you seem incredibly knowledgeable about what we are doing?

I am sorry actually- that was the wrong David Davies.

Apologies.

My comments re right-wingers and religious fundamentalists stand. They may support your goal, but they are not gender-critical.

"The examples you picked included the Conservative Woman. That is the most misogynistic pile of claptrap site you could ever read. It tells women to get a grip, find a husband and stay at home. It honestly does. It is manifestly anti-feminist. "

No doubt.

However such sites are willing to host gender-critical content. The sites themselves are not feminist. But that doesn't mean they don't share opinions on whether, for example, a man can become a woman.

The examples you picked included the Conservative Woman

????
You are making that up?

Nice that you know what "our" goal is. I'm not surprised that gender critical feminism isn't your goal though. You seem to be doing your best to stir up dissent and hatred Peakpants and posse.
It also seems rather ironic to be now opposing religious fundamentalism when a few minutes ago you were extolling the virtues of Islam.

"They may support your goal, but they are not gender-critical."

So even though he talked about being gender critical at the meeting and 200 women heard him, you know its untrue?

But that doesn't mean they don't share opinions on whether, for example, a man can become a woman.

You are right, but I would not label that gender-critical. You can believe a man can't become a woman without in any way attacking the notion that gender has been used to oppress women for decades. Laura Perrins and her ilk over at CW believe women have no other role than to be mothers and wives. Laura herself proudly states she will raise her daughter a non-feminists and lays into Chuka Umuna for daring to be unmarried. She also tells women to wear high heels because otherwise they will not snare a man. Oh and she is a huge advocate of The Rules. (I read the site when my blood pressure needs raising).

So even though he talked about being gender critical at the meeting and 200 women heard him, you know its untrue?

Sorry, I got the Davies's confused. My point is not the meeting in the HoC but rather the right-wing websites and speakers.

As for the comment that I am making it up re Conservative Woman, that was one of the links posted about supposed gender critical content.

I never said I had been to any meetings. I am not talking about what was said at meetings.

And yet you are having a busy old time advising what we can say and can't say at meetings, who can go and can't, what parameters their opinions must fall into on a range of subjects, and what the diversity and inclusion policies should be.

What can I say? I am a multi-tasker. I have watched a few meetings online, but I guess that doesn't count.

"You are right, but I would not label that gender-critical. You can believe a man can't become a woman without in any way attacking the notion that gender has been used to oppress women for decades. Laura Perrins and her ilk over at CW believe women have no other role than to be mothers and wives. Laura herself proudly states she will raise her daughter a non-feminists and lays into Chuka Umuna for daring to be unmarried. She also tells women to wear high heels"

That's not really the point I was making - rather that the PoV on, say, gender-neutral changing rooms might be 100% indistinguishable between a site like CW and a feminist site.

So in that context it's not especially relevant whether they are identifying as feminists or not, if they are making the same arguments.

I'm sure Conservative Woman is conservative with a small c by the way (though obviously not actually in the title, being a title), just in case anyone wasn't sure.

Anyway, my pov has already been shared elsewhere - suffice to say I have concerns that sometimes supporting one underrepresented population can then be at odds with supporting another underrepresented population, so they end up alienated instead - but I wanted to add that my experience tallies with @BlooperReel

This thread, where feminism eats itself...

Any point of agreement between the women's movement and any other group is said to undermine the women's movement.
Oddly enough, Feminism is the only group that is held to this standard.

Anti feminists have been saying this, to my personal knowledge, since the anti porn days when Feminists agreed with the religious right on the harm porn does to a people.

There were probably some bad guys somewhere who agreed with women having the vote, it's just not well documented

"Any point of agreement between the women's movement and any other group is said to undermine the women's movement.
Oddly enough, Feminism is the only group that is held to this standard."

This seems to be an internal problem as much as anything tbh

I don't believe everything people say they are on the internet. I also don't believe that most people give the whole truth about themselves on the internet. A wise feminist woman I knew in one space used to say that noone should have to bleed in public. Meaning we shouldnt ask or expect women to reveal every detail about themselves in order to be allowed to speak, especially as some of the most private women have been through hell.

We can't assume that all people of one group or another agree and we can't assume that everyone who disagrees with a perspective is therefore an outsider to the particular group assumed to have that perspective.

I don't know if I'm making sense here.

This thread, where feminism eats itself...

It's not though really, it's just a few authoritarians issuing instructions and others expressing their distaste.

Feminism eats that for breakfast.

This seems to be an internal problem as much as anything tbh

Only if you consider anti feminists to be part of the Feminist movement.

PeakPants wrote - "I just cannot see how anyone could want to join forces with them when much of what they say is so extremely anti-feminist. Aren't you hugely undermining your own argument there? Yes, the end result might be that self-ID is not enacted. However, once that is over, you will realise that life with right-wingers is not a bed of roses and the issues that have been overlooked in the quest for opposing self-ID suddenly become much more apparent again."

Perhaps for some gender-critical feminists it's a case of the lesser of two harms to women and girls (although both possibilities are harmful to women and girls) : "misogyny now and in the future without self ID" is better than is than "misogyny now and in the future with self-ID".

If the misogynistic rightwingers lose their power, there are plenty of misogynistic leftwingers who are only too willing to replace them in patriarchal discrimination against female people.

Im a working class feminist but feel completely on my own in RL (apart from when im talking to my 23 year old niece) i share loads of feminist issues articles and campaigns on fb What gets shared in return? Stuff like "its legs out season ladies Time to get the razor out" It makes me want to SCREAM.

However i can understand why it happens. Recently there was a "who should pay on the first date" thread in AIBU.

I said if it were me i would go Dutch yes but i would have to forego a leg wax to do so. So some of us got into a debate on that thread about how women are paying more before they even get to the venue and this is particularly a problem for women on a low income.

The answer from some claiming to be feminists (although i havent seen any of their user names on this board) was "tough shit get a better job Not our fault that you have low aspirations no ambition" etc. Its not the first time ive heard these attitudes either. Working class women hear it from more well off women in RL too. It is no wonder really that some working class women feel that they identify with brocialists / lefty dude bros or whatever they are called.

I also pointed out on the same thread that there are not as many men willing to spilt childcare as there is willing to split the cost of a date

And i stand by that I stand by the fact that i said that some men will cherry pick the aspects of feminism that will benefit them.

There were a lot of good posters on that thread too though.