How do we scourge out racism and classism in feminism?

[Treesybreezy]

I need to apologize upfront - I am disabled and also looking after a baby so I'm not going to be able to check back on this thread as frequently as I'd like. I will be back tho.

I've just read this by sister outrider sisteroutrider.wordpress.com/2018/01/15/dispatches-from-the-margins-on-women-race-and-class/amp/?__twitter_impression=true . I know there have been other threads where black women (or other ethnicities) have said, racism is a massive problem and there's been a large, reflexive defensive reaction from white women here.

I'm too tired to articulate this properly now in support of what sister outrider has said, but I've definitely seen both racism and classism in action.

How do we set this right?

There's direct then indirect discrimination/barriors. Direct is pissing easy to point out to people indirect is trickier. But I agree those who do aren't true feminist especially not in the way the radfem WordPress article portrayed.

bewilderedness thanks for the link will check it out.

First we stop talking about men and the antics they are getting up to - the constant barrage of oh have you seen what so and do said on Twitter is boring and tedious as are their antics. There will always be dicks - let them be dicks on their own - dicks don't interest me.

Intelligent discourse does.

Focusing on feminist discussions about freedom and not about reforming men is a great start

Can we do it please?

It's impossible to remove race and class because they are both used to divide and conquer women in different ways. Acknowledging each other's starting point is helpful and developing an ability to listen and not take things personally - to find ways to voice one's opinions and reservations but keeping it in the "I" eg I imagine that or I make up this or I think this

Being able to acknowledge when one has been wrong and defer to those who have a different lived experience

So those who have never known financial insecurity and the threat of homelessness shouldn't be making policy for those who do

It's common sense - discussion, deferral, dialogue, sharing time and space, owning ones projections, checking assumptions and don't be a dick or tolerate dicks

I'll start - I make up this is a sealioning thread to divide and conquer FWR - I don't know why - I haven't checked OP's history - I just sense an attempt at a setup

What I've seen mostly is white women refusing to believe that white privilege is real because they are women and so they are a victim of male privilege; it seems that they being up the argument of 'I'm not priviliged, ... has happened to me and males have done this etc. Interesting that they can see one type of privilege but not another.

Small suggestion, you don't have to participate in this thread if you dont want to. You don't have to read the links. You don't have to learn or care about women who don't look like you sound like you talk like you have money like you work like you.

If you don't like it hide the thread.

I do care about women who are different to me. But nobody can tell me how I should be demonstrating this.

I live in a city so throughout my day I speak to all kinds of people. But not in a context where I could 'centre them in my feminism' or 'uplift their voices'.

It all just feels so intangible and theoretical. I'm white and middle class, and I get that both of these factors give me privilege. But apart from being a decent human being, what bit of feminism am I getting wrong?

Or is this just an academic debate.

Its a funny old thing racism. My now dead FIL was a refugee from Poland, spent years in two concentration camps. A victim of an horrendous racist

I think, in order to achieve the goal set out in the thread title you need to be able to establish what racism actually is. Your grandfather, god rest his soul, was not the victim of racism.

I agree with Mist As an educated, middle class white woman, the best way I can help eradicate racism and classism is by first listening to what those women think should happen and needs to change, and then supporting appropriately. Not by ‘whitefemsplaining’ at them, because I know best.

MorrisZapp you don't have to do anything. The problem only starts when people deny that their privilege exists.

Online feminist forums like this should help reduce racism as you can't tell what colour someone is and you respond to what people are saying not how they looks. You also can't tell what sort of accent someone has apart from the odd local word or phrase.
You get an idea of educational level and spelling ability but that's different to what class you are.
I think most people have to work to ensure they aren't discriminated against and let others do the same. Trying to speak for other people in your idea of their best interests isn't the answer.

I feel that I can't win. If I speak up on issues that affect black and poor women then I'm talking over them, patronising them, or making it all about me.

If I keep my gob shut on matters that don't affect me I'm blind, arrogant, selfish etc.

Maybe I mean effect, sorry.

No, you can’t win, but supporting others from those sections of society who speak out is the most useful IMO. I don’t think we can solve those issues ourselves, as white m/c, nor should we be trying to take the lead.

You were correct the first time, affect.

I think that's the only way forward. I shall shut up now and leave others to talk on the issues that directly impact their lives.

I found it very calming and less guilt-ridden once I accepted that.

I am from a working class background, and in terms of racism, I think 'shunning' those who hold distasteful, prejudiced, derogatory etc views, does far more harm than good. What happens is they are pushed together, there is comraderie and unity in declaring 'immigrants take all our jobs' for example. Being shunned for these opinions reinforces them.

What is needed, I think, is to at least attempt to see where these views are coming from, and find 'gentler' ways of disproving them rather than just labelling them a racist bigot and shutting it down.

With specific reference to racism in feminism, I think it is often more nuanced than the typical anti immigrant type of racism most think of when they consider racism. I think it is more ingrained, and often not conscious racism if that makes sense. So you have white women championing anti FGM laws vehemently, who end up shutting out FGM survivors and taking over as it were, instead of pushing those survivors, people who come from a culture where FGM is practiced, because they inherently feel they know better, can campaign better, can explain it better.

To stamp that out is more difficult, and takes real soul searching from individuals.

Sorry, should have said

instead of pushing those survivors, people who come from a culture where FGM is practiced, to the forefront of campaigns, focus groups, meetings etc

What about the women who reject feminism or see it as irrelevant to them - in particular, the theoretical navel-gazing of it all? If they work for the benefit of other women, are they feminist enough for a movement that puts more emphasis on policing itself than anything else? Is the very act of policing anti-feminist? As here:

I am writing to you to tell you a story about the three greatest feminists I ever knew. One was my mother in law, she was upper middle class and during World War 2 she worked in London, when she was left a widow with young children, she went to work even though her upper middle class peers disapproved, she campaigned for single parents throughout her life. You wouldn’t have liked her, she thought feminism was nonsense even though every moment of her life she could, she worked for the benefit of other women while breaking the mould and heading her own household. The second was a woman on an estate I lived on, she was built like a brick shithouse, was racist, obnoxious. Whenever she heard a bloke on that estate had battered his missus, she kicked shit out of him. She didn’t understand why I thought she was a feminist, and she thought it was nonsense but there was no domestic abuse on any estate she lived on. The third is a woman called Shagufta, a mother of several children, forced into marriage at 14, she stayed married to till she died and loved the man she was forced to marry. I watched her march into the house of a pimp holding two teenage girls and drag them out, while he stood terrified. She wouldn’t have understood a word you said but spent her life working for the benefit of other women.

idgeofreason.wordpress.com/2017/01/14/dear-laurie-penny/

(I don't have an answer: just putting out there as a discussion point.)

What do you think us as white middle class feminists should actually do? I have enough going on fighting for my own bit of space and acceptance.

Abusive? Okay good to know.