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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Dare to hope

146 replies

Imnobody4 · 23/05/2018 19:12

Most positive thing I've seen for a very long time.

www.politicshome.com/news/uk/home-affairs/law/house/house-magazine/95277/gavin-shuker-organised-sexual-exploitation

OP posts:
TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 24/05/2018 15:33

Well of course I don't think that there's anything good about commercialised sexual assault under any circumstances. But it's definitely an improvement when perpetrators are criminalised rather than survivors.

goprawn · 24/05/2018 15:33

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ErrolTheDragon · 24/05/2018 15:38

You have some sort of comparable 'data' (to stretch the meaning of the word) from 19 years ago? The ads 'suggest' nothing except that prostitutes are free to advertise (was that the case before the 'Nordic model'?)

goprawn · 24/05/2018 15:41

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goprawn · 24/05/2018 15:42

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vesuvia · 24/05/2018 15:48

goprawn wrote - "Must still be a lot of demand otherwise they wouldn't be advertising."

Advertisers often advertise because they are not finding enough demand.

Cwenthryth · 24/05/2018 16:35

Goprawn, you seem to be labouring under the misunderstanding that women here wish to debate the Nordic model with you. I'm pretty confident I can speak for many of us when I say - we don't. We really don't care what you think. Piss off. Many of us are in favour of criminalising sex buyers, and therefore we are happy to see the announcement referenced in the OP. None of us are buying what you seem so desperate to convince us of. Go away.

Back to the topic of conversation - this is good news, and it's good to hear it. What happens next - once an APPG has made a report with these recommendations - is it up to the government to then take those on and amend legislation? Who can we pressure to make this happen?

This is the APPG page outlining recommendations appgprostitution.uk/inquiry/

CharlieParley · 24/05/2018 23:37

Glad to see the report. I've been in a state of shock about this since Christmas when my otherwise lovely dad lost his temper after I made a throwaway remark regarding prostitution in Germany. Turns out my dad had watched a recent documentary about the horrific situation prostitutes in Germany now find themselves in.

I've supported decriminalisation, legalisation and regulation all my life. Over 25 years ago when this was lobbied hard for in Germany, there was a large number of fantastic (as in brilliant, not fantastical) proposals for brothel enterprises and licencing and training for prostitutes - at the time a considerable number of German prostitutes had confidently managed their business, their punters and spoken of their work (almost none of these women had pimps however). They looked like they knew their stuff, they made a lot of sense and in the end they achieved their aim.

Now it's a quarter of a century later and many of those campaigners have openly admitted it was the wrong step to take. The number of prostitutes has tripled, almost all of the additional prostitutes are trafficked in from Eastern Europe, most are underage and forced.

Prices have dropped by 95% in some places (before that German men crossed the border into Poland or the Czech Republic for cheap sex, but now they don't have to anymore).

Crime has not fallen as projected by the lobbyists - on the contrary, prostitutes are less safe, less healthy and shockingly most cannot even afford a place to live anymore - they live and work in the brothels and are regularly rotated (against their will I might add) between cities coz the men using them get bored and want variety.

Drug abuse has also increased sharply and sexual diseases are on the rise - as is always the case when prices fall, risky behaviour results in higher pay.

Germany also has very strict laws about when the police can enter a business, when they can search premises etc, so the police is essentially powerless to do anything about this - few of the trafficked women dare to speak out. Their frustration is palpable, but without due cause they cannot do a thing.

The number of women who successfully sue their pimps or customers for withholding their pay has also fallen by about 90% (can't remember what the reason was, the documentary was long and distressing), so fewer prostitutes get the pay they are owed.

The only people who have benefited from this well thought out and properly planned legalisation, decriminalisation and regulation of prostitution in Germany are the pimps and the punters.

It's almost impossible now to find any of the proud whores from a quarter of a century ago (as the German prostitutes confidently called themselves back then). There's just broken minds and bodies wherever you look.

Germany definitely wasn't a "sex workers paradise" before legalisation but it's hell on earth for them now.

goprawn · 25/05/2018 14:31

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ToeToToe · 25/05/2018 17:47

Absolutely true about Germany. I alluded to the awful situation there upthread.

Trafficking has massively reduced in Sweden due to the Nordic model.

Of course punters/pimps don't want sex-buying outlawed - and will argue about it till the cows come home. But that's just because they want to continue buying/profiting from women's bodies, and they don't give a fuck if girls are trafficked.

If you've got Netflix, I think the Whistleblower is still on there - but be warned, it is a very harrowing watch.

DisturblinglyOrangeScrambleEgg · 25/05/2018 18:16

Decriminalisation isn't far enough - if you're going to do that, it needs to be fully regulated - all health and safety standards regarding body fluids to be followed, inspections performed both for the prostitutes women and any cleaners, public liability insurance, professional registration etc.

Anything less is clearly unnacceptable.

Personally, I think that buying someone as a wank sock is abhorrent, and has no place in society, but you know, perhaps out of work men will appreciate the opportunity to make some cash offering their orifices to other men - after all, if it's not illegal, then they'll have to take what's offered down the job Centre I expect

goprawn · 25/05/2018 21:45

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QuarksandLeptons · 25/05/2018 21:57

Friends in Germany say that the general consensus among most people is that the decriminalisation route has been a total horror show and one which they’re shocked and ashamed is in their country.

Likewise, in New Zealand since brothels and punters were given the freedom to use women as prostitutes without fear of the law, the rates of violence against prostitutes has risen and their pay has fallen

ToeToToe · 25/05/2018 21:59

source?

Stockholm police.

goprawn · 25/05/2018 22:21

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ToeToToe · 25/05/2018 22:34

That's because the UN HIV report was advised by sex worker umbrella orgs.

You want to ask a policeman.

goprawn · 25/05/2018 22:40

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ToeToToe · 25/05/2018 22:43

I haven't mentioned Douglas Fox.

You asked about my source for trafficking rates in Sweden - I provided it.

goprawn · 25/05/2018 22:47

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ToeToToe · 25/05/2018 22:49

You asked me about trafficking to Sweden- your UN HIV report quote is not talking about trafficking.

goprawn · 25/05/2018 22:54

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ToeToToe · 25/05/2018 22:57

So you admit it's reduced trafficking? It's awfully dull when people argue like this - ask one question, then when answered, jump to the next.

My point was trafficking has reduced in Sweden - a good thing, yes?

AngryAttackKittens · 25/05/2018 23:00

I'm loving the combination of thread title and prawn's contributions.

OP - Can I dare to hope?

Prawn - Hell no, abandon all hope, ye who dare to feminist in public

MrsTerryPratchett · 25/05/2018 23:01

Just balance a ball on your bloody nose and have done.

I find it fingernails-embedded-in-palms rage-inducing to be lectured about women's safety by men endorsing the sex trade. Why do men pretend it's about that? Be fucking honest. You want the right to use women's bodies and buy consent. I have a lot more respect for honesty.

Just admit that full legalization, and 'hopefully' an end to marginalization, means you can have sex with women who would not consent unless you paid them. And that's why you like it.

ToeToToe · 25/05/2018 23:04

Criminalising sex buying shames the sex buyers - makes it socially unacceptable - they don't like that.

Do you, GoPrawn?

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