Strong words from feminists unhappy with trans exclusionary ideology..

[crispbuttyfan]

freedomnews.org.uk/its-spelt-sisterhood-not-cis-terhood-statement/

a little taster of the content, not my words....

"We are disgusted by the TERF techniques of bullying trans people and their friends and comrades. TERFs stand against a vulnerable minority by refusing their right to exist, using their dead names, doxxing them, smearing them online and in the press and waging a fear campaign, all whilst accusing trans women of being a possible legal and physical threat to cis women. These techniques are not consistent with their announced aim of getting legislation refused by parliament and belie the TERFs real agenda of intolerance.

We are sick and tired of TERF alarmism. There is no evidence that trans women are in any way a threat to cis women. To the contrary, there is a lot of evidence that TERFs feed the prejudice against trans women. The countries which introduced their own versions of GRA are not experiencing the problems the TERFs associate with allowing trans people to determine their own gender."

The best thing to do in response is only respond to each other.

Definitely. 👍🏼

The question isn't whether or not AGP exists - anyone with eyes can see that it does - the question is whether AGP is a paraphilia or an usual sexual orientation or a combination of the two, and whether or not it is possible for it to become accepted in society without harming women.

an unusual sexual orientation

From the OP 'It’s spelt Sisterhood, not Cis-terhood' statement, a list of the groups supporting it.

but when you have to rely on things like AGP it shows up the total lack of of actual facts

On another thread you referenced your belief in the DSM-5. The DSM5 contains autogynephilia.

So the condition of gender dysphoria in the DSM5 is correct but the definition of fetishising transvestism/autogynephilia is wrong?

Is that correct? You pick and choose what you accept from DSM according to your own belief?

we see you??
next you'll be telling me you know where I live....

Er... in a bubble?

Bowlofbabelfish

The dsm-5 has no such section on AGP, no diagnostic criteria..... it simply appears in italics around transvestic fetishism.

It is still not in use or perceived as having a diagnostic merit.

There is a wealth of studies that indicate gender identity is innate, just this week a study shows differences in the brains of children.

Nonetheless GIC's as you claim do not consider this anywhere in the uk.

And certainly has no bearing whatsoever on obtaining a GRC.
I'm not sure how you think a GRC works, it requires a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, even the quack blanchard who coined agp suggests it can cause gender dysphoria, so by definition it is not mutually exclusive, therefore even if it existed and was considered to have merit AGP's could still be diagnosed and obtain a GRC.

Furthermore, a GRC has absolutely no impact on the equality act or whether a trans person can use sex-segregated facilities.

None of what you claim holds up.

As far as I’m aware AGP is an exclusion criteria for getting a GRC - is that incorrect.?

Which MRI study was that? I think we’ve already discussed that on here.

This one?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3256462-MRI-scan-can-show-if-you-are-transgender-Apparently

If so it shows no such thing. IF what they have seen is reproducible then they’ve found a different signal in the brains of people with gender dysphoria. It’s not defined if that’s causal or consequential. You can find differences in the brains of anorexics and people with other sysphorias too - what you’re seeing is evidence of a possible predisposition to, or consequence of, a gender dysphoria.

Not evidence that gender is innate, or that there are any pink or blue brains.

There was a neuroscientist in a while back who picked apart the previous scan data that someone posted - her post was excellent. The thread is here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3196135-Scientists-please-gather-round

Again no evidence of pink or blue. Rains or evidence of ‘seeing gender on a scan.’

So AGP is in the DSM5 as a descriptor of fetishistic transvestism

“In DSM-5, published in 2013, With autogynephilia (sexual arousal by thoughts, images of self as a female) is a specifier to 302.3 Transvestic disorder (intense sexual arousal from cross-dressing fantasies, urges or behaviors); the other specifier is With fetishism (sexual arousal to fabrics, materials or garments).”

I’m always struck by you referring to Blanchard as a quack. He’s been working in the field for decades and is seen as a respected figure. Or is it that you reject the idea of AGP itself?

from Wikipedia
Ray Blanchard
Education & Career:
"Blanchard was born in Hammonton, New Jersey. He received his A.B. in psychology from the University of Pennsylvania in 1967 and his Ph.D. from the University of Illinois in 1973. He conducted postdoctoral research at Dalhousie University until 1976, when he accepted a position as a clinical psychologist at the Ontario Correctional Institute in Brampton, Ontario, Canada (a suburb of Toronto). There, Blanchard met Kurt Freund, who became his mentor. Freund was conducting research in chemical castration for sex offenders.[1] In 1980, he joined the Clarke Institute of Psychiatry (now part of the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health).[2] In 1995 Blanchard was named Head of Clinical Sexology Services in the Law and Mental Health Programme of the CAMH, where he served until 2010. He is an adjunct Professor of Psychiatry at the University of Toronto.[3] He served on the American Psychiatric Association DSM-IV Subcommittee on Gender Identity Disorders[4] and was named to the DSM-5 committee. According to the Web of Science, Blanchard's scientific articles have been cited more than 1800 times, with an h-index of 27.[5]"

Dr Anne Lawrence:
www.annelawrence.com/
Someone who has written extensively on AGP transsexualism, and who is one.

bowlofbaelfish

There are over 150 studies on detected differences in the brain over the last 20 or years that some structures/appearance/performance of the brain in trans people bend away from natal sex towards experienced gender, absolutely no one is saying its as simple as blue and pink brains.

Your quite right, Blanchard has been working in this field for decades, and his typology is almost 30 years old..... you really think we don't have more understanding in the last 30 years??

Heis used almost exclusively by evangelicals and other transphobes to make a case for refusing trans rights, thats why he's wading around sites like 4thwavenow instead of leading studies with any kind of reputable institute.

Any support you can find to do with AGP will always go back to either Blanchard, Bailey, or Lawrence....... in 30 years hardly anyone else in the field thinks it's anything more than outdated quackery.

As I have repeated before, NO recognised medical establishment in the world uses it in any way whatsoever, or considers it to have merit.

So, yes.... the idea that AGP can be used to reject a GRC is not remotely true, it can be rejected of course, for other reasons and more often than not.. incorrectly filling in a form, or not submitted the correct evidence required.

But never AGP, because it has no merit or existence in the protocols of Gender Clinics etc

As I have repeated before, NO recognised medical establishment in the world uses it in any way whatsoever, or considers it to have merit.

Except he’s on the board for the DSM. They tend not to appoint people to that unless they are in fact rather knowledgeable in their field.

No clinics? Except all the ones that use the DSM5? Which is all the USA ones.. and most of RoW as well.

What’s the situation with ICH-10 ?

The fact his work is 30years in span means nothing other than he’s been working for thirty years in the field. Rather a lot of Gregor Mendel’s stuff is still in use, you know.

No MRI scans have found anything that translates to ‘this persons brain is transgender.’ If you look at theblink I posted upthread that has a neuroscientist explaining the situation

it can be rejected of course, for other reasons

Like fetishistic transvestism in the absence of genuine gender dysphoria for example?

There are over 150 studies on detected differences in the brain over the last 20 or years that some structures/appearance/performance of the brain in trans people bend away from natal sex towards experienced gender, absolutely no one is saying its as simple as blue and pink brains.

And there are ones that contradict it. Many of these studies have extremely small sample sizes, haven't been replicated and fail to control adequately for neuroplasticity and sexual orientation.

Crisp butty: your studies amount to precisely nothing.

They show - all of them show - that males and females share brain traits. That is the beginning and end of what they show.

Many of these studies have extremely small sample sizes, haven't been replicated and fail to control adequately for neuroplasticity and sexual orientation.

Thank you for saving me the typing!

You can't show that males are female, because they aren't. It's just such a false premise to start from. I wish we could start working on actual acceptance rather than trying to force this strange pretence on others.

People getting sexual kicks out of the whole thing need to sod off back to their own bedrooms, mind.

Like fetishistic transvestism in the absence of genuine gender dysphoria for example?

Well, quite. The contortions all this takes make me laugh.

AGP must not be conceded to exist at all costs. But we'll sneak cross dressing into the Stonewall definition of trans for no apparent reason.

Also are the populations presenting at gender clinics not heavily biased towards people with gender dyphoria?

Surely it’s a self selecting population and an AGP individual isn’t after gender clinic services...

Why so reluctant to accept that there are genuinely dysphoric people and also people whose primary motive is paraphilic? And that the two populations have different motivations and are after different things?

People with gender dysphoria require access to treatment. If self ID comes in and all medical gatekeeping goes, and there’s no requirement to see GD as a medical condition, what do you think will happen to NHS provision of gender clinics? Because there’s now no need for treatment, because it isn’t a medical issue....

thebewilderness
your link proves nothing

As I clearly stated, it explains something.
By now everyone knows you are not a member of the reality based community, crispy. That is why I was not addressing you, and I will thank you not to address me again.

I have just watched Rose of Dawn's latest video which has a number of connections to the OP and also with regards the assault on Maria Maclachlan:
'What Does Co-Opting The Trans Movement Look Like?'
twitter.com/Rose_Of_Dawn/status/1000009597598490624

She draws some important links and highlights issues with the influence some NUS officers have.

AGP must not be conceded to exist at all costs. But we'll sneak cross dressing into the Stonewall definition of trans for no apparent reason.

This. In mile high letters.

Thank you for saving me the typing!

Happy to