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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Strong words from feminists unhappy with trans exclusionary ideology..

374 replies

crispbuttyfan · 23/05/2018 18:57

freedomnews.org.uk/its-spelt-sisterhood-not-cis-terhood-statement/

a little taster of the content, not my words....

"We are disgusted by the TERF techniques of bullying trans people and their friends and comrades. TERFs stand against a vulnerable minority by refusing their right to exist, using their dead names, doxxing them, smearing them online and in the press and waging a fear campaign, all whilst accusing trans women of being a possible legal and physical threat to cis women. These techniques are not consistent with their announced aim of getting legislation refused by parliament and belie the TERFs real agenda of intolerance.

We are sick and tired of TERF alarmism. There is no evidence that trans women are in any way a threat to cis women. To the contrary, there is a lot of evidence that TERFs feed the prejudice against trans women. The countries which introduced their own versions of GRA are not experiencing the problems the TERFs associate with allowing trans people to determine their own gender."

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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FermatsTheorem · 25/05/2018 18:51

I ran the thread title through the "TERF-translator" and it came up with

Strong victim blaming from misogynist (with conviction for assaulting 61 year old woman) and friends on the subject of feminism which actually centres women.

crispbuttyfan · 25/05/2018 18:57

Blanchard wasnt on the dsm board because of agp, he has other works

I do understand why transphobes and the uninformed cling to AGP, and the framing of the denial being proof it exists, its all daft!

No medical establishment has ever given a diagnosis of AGP certainly not in this country.

As for the brain studies, yes I accept they are imprecise because of sample sizes, but they do show trans people can bend away from natal sex in certain circumstances, but there are no bigger sample sizes that conclude the opposite either however it shouldn't be a basis for diagnosis or gatekeeping anyway, and thankfully it isn't.

Trans rights are only going in one direction, and I have no doubt self-id will be passed as it is elsewhere in the world.
And it has no impact either way on sex-segregated spaces.

This thread has been derailed by bowlofbabelfish wittering on about AGP, and I should have spotted that soone, after all 90% of the threads on here do the same...

So I'll leave one last write up on blanchard for those who stumble along and may be interested in the counterview to the propaganda, then I'll leave it there....

On November 4, 2003, Ray Blanchard resigned from HBIGDA, the association of clinicians and researchers working in the area of gender dysphoria, transgenderism and transsexualism.

Blanchard's resignation came in response to dissemination of open letter from HBIGDA regarding J. Michael Bailey's book on transsexualism, which among other things said that:

"trust and mutual respect between the scientific and the transgender communities is essential . . . to promote the health and well-being of transgender and transsexual individuals and their families. It is felt by many of our members that this poorly referenced book does not reflect the social and scientific literature that exists on transsexual people and could damage that essential trust."

  • HBIGDA Officers and Board of Directors, October 20, 2003

Well now, just who is Blanchard and what does his resignation from HBIGDA mean in the overall context of the Bailey fiasco? We'll explore these questions here (for more details about Blanchard and his work, see Andrea James "Ray Blanchard" page).

Blanchard is a sexologist who in the late 1980's coined the word "autogynephilia", mostly as a replacement for the words "transvestic fetishism". He then went on to claim this word-invention and the Freudian speculations behind it as a deep scientific discovery of the cause of most transsexualism.

An "expert in addiction and sexual paraphilia", it was no surprise that Blanchard discovered that transsexualism is caused by, you guessed it: sexual addiction and sexual paraphilia. Blanchard then used a stream of mostly indigent and thus captive clients at his gender clinic (the infamous "Clarke Institute" in Toronto, Canada) to get the answers he wanted in order to prove his new theory of transsexualism.

In the late 1980's, Blanchard began teaching that all transsexualism is either (i) an extreme form of homosexuality, in which men acquire female physicality in order to be able to have sex with large numbers of other men, or (ii) a sexual paraphilia ("autogynephilia"), in which men acquire female physicality in order to heighten their masturbation experiences (by being in love with their own bodies). In a sweeping claim of having discovered the cause of transsexualism, Blanchard eliminated inner gender identity or gendered feelings (GID) as factors or mechanisms in transsexualism, replacing them with a model of transsexualism as a pathological male sexual disorder.

A rat psychologist by training, Blanchard always wanted to be a famous scientist. (Bailey even talks about Blanchard's science-fame ambition in his book on pages 157-158 in his book). As is common knowledge in the sexology community, for many years Blanchard used his highly developed alpha-male dominance capabilities in efforts to force his so-called "discovery" on his sexology colleagues and into the sex textbooks. He may have hoped that this approach to doing science would make him famous, even though his ideas have never been taken seriously by the majority of clinicians and researchers knowledgeable about transsexualism.

And then along comes J. Michael Bailey's book, which teaches the old Blanchardian theory of transsexualism and in parallel extols the supposed scientific genius of Bailey's hero Blanchard (without revealing the mainstream GID understanding of transsexualism within the larger research and clinical communities).

The Man Who Would Be Queen (TMWWBQ) must initially have been a glorious sight for Ray Blanchard, published as it was by the National Academy Press. Especially since Bailey was successful in obtaining a properly stigmatizing and pathologizing cover art and title - all quite in accordance with the Blanchardian views of transsexualism as pathology. Blanchard must have thought: "this will become a best-selling sex-science book! It's success will insure my scientific fame...!"

Blanchard and Bailey were inextricably linked together as mentor and protege, and both of their scientific fates were put on the line, when Bailey published TMWWBQ. For more insight into the deep connections between Blanchard and Bailey, see Andrea James excellent "Bailey on Blanchard" webpage, in which she explores how pop psychologist J. Michael Bailey expresses profound admiration for his mentor, considers him a role model, and worked to explain and popularize his theory.

.....Nor does he want others to know other key facts: Namely that it is the clique of Bailey's close intellectual colleagues and friends, including Ray Blanchard, Anne Lawrence, James Cantor, Steven Pinker, David Buss, Kenneth Zucker, John Derbyshire, Dan Seligman and Steve Sailer who have made their own presence felt, in interventions behind the scenes - in their strong support for Bailey with the Northwestern administration, in a series of staged reviews of Bailey's book, in shill uses of selected clips from those reviews in the National Academy website, in right-wing targeted articles in media such as the National Review and Forbes Magazine - all in rather obvious efforts to affect the outcome of the investigation and save Bailey from the well-deserved 'Rekerian fate' of total scientific obscurity within an increasingly marginalized intellectual circle of aging men who live in the past.

....In a way, Blanchard's resignation from HBIGDA marks the end of an era - an era in which sexologists constantly pathologized transsexual people, and did so without any remorse whatsoever. Blanchard rose to the top of the sexology heap by conducting relentlessly pathologizing scientific forays against trans people and then forcing his "results" onto his field.

Unfortunately for Blanchard, he and Bailey went "one book too far" in their arrogance - and in their total ignorance of the increasingly successful and powerful community of people they were defaming. Unable to scramble back across that fallen bridge, they're now cut themselves off from the larger scientific community. Exposed for all to see as the trans defamers they are, they're falling into well-deserved ignominy, thus ending an era...

OP posts:
Baroquehavoc · 25/05/2018 19:00

Trans rights are only going in one direction, and I have no doubt self-id will be passed as it is elsewhere in the world.
And it has no impact either way on sex-segregated spaces.

Makes me wonder why you spend so much time and energy on here trying to convince us that we are wrong.

R0wantrees · 25/05/2018 19:01

Have you copy & pasted an article Crispbuttyfan? If you have could you please reference it?

Ereshkigal · 25/05/2018 19:02

Makes me wonder why you spend so much time and energy on here trying to convince us that we are wrong.

Isn't it odd. You could be out waving your pink and blue flag in the sunshine, but instead you spend thousands of words telling us how wrong we all are.

EmpressOfSpartacus · 25/05/2018 19:38

Who is this Joss Prior bloke anyway & what's zapruder?

HerFemaleness · 25/05/2018 19:51

No medical establishment has ever given a diagnosis of AGP certainly not in this country.

Not under that name, no.

Bowlofbabelfish · 25/05/2018 19:55

Zapruder was the chap who filmed the JFK shooting by accident.

Bowlofbabelfish · 25/05/2018 19:56

Well if it’s going to happen crisp you can go out and enjoy the sunshine rather than attempting to change the minds of us witches then?

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 25/05/2018 20:04

There's not a lot of need for scientific validation of the existence of AGP and the other paraphilias common among some TIM. All you need to do is explore the numerous trans focused Reddit groups, like r/asktransgender where thousands of TIM gather and it all comes bubbling out.

Yambabe · 25/05/2018 20:06

seems to be from here:

ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/BaileyAssociates/BlanchardResigns.html

Angryresister · 25/05/2018 20:09

Ignore ignore ignore

R0wantrees · 25/05/2018 20:13

Yambabe From the bottom of the document you linked:
'This page is part of Lynn Conway's
"Investigative report into the publication of J. Michael Bailey's book on transsexualism by the National Academies"'

Wikipedia background:
Lynn Ann Conway (born January 2, 1938)[2][3] is an American computer scientist, electrical engineer, inventor, and transgender activist.[4]
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynn_Conway

Ereshkigal · 25/05/2018 20:15

There's not a lot of need for scientific validation of the existence of AGP and the other paraphilias common among some TIM. All you need to do is explore the numerous trans focused Reddit groups, like r/asktransgender where thousands of TIM gather and it all comes bubbling out.

This. We've all seen it. And wish we hadn't.

Yambabe · 25/05/2018 20:15

and related to this

ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/BaileyAssociates/BlanchardResigns.html

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 25/05/2018 20:16

for the brain studies, yes I accept they are imprecise because of sample sizes, but they do show trans people can bend away from natal sex in certain circumstances

Well no. Because they are imprecise [i.e. bollocks] because of sample sizes

but there are no bigger sample sizes that conclude the opposite either

Again. The neuroscientist I heard on R4's Infinite Monkey Cage a couple of months ago was very clear that there is no such thing as a male brain or a female brain. So no-one is going to be able to demonstrate that a TiM has a lady brain are they?

Thread after thread after thread. It doesn't look like a confident stance tbh. It looks like a last ditch desperate attempt to stem a tide of people going 'Hang on...what the actual fuck?'

R0wantrees · 25/05/2018 20:17

I'm going to repost as it may have got lost,

I watched Rose of Dawn's latest video which has a number of connections to the OP and also with regards the assault on Maria Maclachlan:
'What Does Co-Opting The Trans Movement Look Like?'
twitter.com/Rose_Of_Dawn/status/1000009597598490624

She draws some important links and highlights issues with the influence some NUS officers have, Action for Trans Health, extreme far left ideology etc.

Yambabe · 25/05/2018 20:19

oops link fail. This is Bailey's book. Lynn Conway, author of the piece Crisp posted, was the motivator behind the investigation by Northwestern Uni into Bailey and his book. That investigation found no basis in any of the complaints against Bailey.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Would_Be_Queen

thebewilderness · 25/05/2018 20:25

I think it important to note that it is called transvestism in the DSM and by Stonewall. It is a source of conflict between those under the trans umbrella. Not our circus, not our monkeys.
I see no reason for Feminists to be drug into these disputes by people who are making every effort to overwhelm the board with transgender identified males opinions on women's rights.

pombear · 25/05/2018 20:46

It puzzles me why there's still any debate as to whether men with a sexual fetish for cross dressing are included in the definition of 'trans' or not. (Or whether they exist, which we can all see, the minute you venture into social media) Unless some people are trying very hard to dismiss/suppress our knowledge of this area of trans.

Because you've got Tara Hewitt, a 'leading Diversity consultant' and founder of Trans Equality Legal Initiative, who has led many many training sessions for organisations re trans issues. Tara explicitly states that people (men) with a sexual fetish are most definitely included in the definition of 'trans'.

Here Tara is talking to a room full of healthcare professionals. If you haven't got much time, start at 4.25 for Tara's full definition.

Tara specifically says:
"you've got people that fetishistically cross dress so they wear clothing to get a sexual desire out of that clothing or the opposite gender, generally associated with men who wear women's underwear or women's clothing... I don't know any women who wear boxer sorts and find that sexually arousing".

If you've got time to watch the whole clip, it's an interesting dynamic, and some interesting perspective from Tara (particularly a bit of a jaw-dropping perspective on breast cancer experience at the end).

I can't imagine why noone had any questions at the end!

pombear · 25/05/2018 20:55

And to be clear, I have no issue with anyone's personal fetishes, tie yourself up, dress as a furry, wear a gimp mask. Whatever floats your boat.

In your own time and in your own space.

When it starts to require my validation, and participation in your fetish as a woman to do so, or other women, be they women who have experienced domestic violence, women who are lesbians, women who feel safer in penis-free environments for whatever reason.

That's when it's not acceptable.

And when you spread your trans umbrella so wide, how are women meant to know which trans-variable is in their space and have any control over what's acceptable and wha'ts not?

It's a seemingly own-goal for those with dysphoria, but I suspect they aren't the ones who are now driving the trans-truck.

R0wantrees · 25/05/2018 20:56

I was following #WPUK last night during the Newcastle meeting and saw a number of tweets from Tara Hewitt. I thought I recognised the name.

Strong words from feminists unhappy with trans exclusionary ideology..
Strong words from feminists unhappy with trans exclusionary ideology..
Strong words from feminists unhappy with trans exclusionary ideology..
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 25/05/2018 21:09

Here Tara is talking to a room full of healthcare professionals

Wait. What? Trans people are more likely to get cancer Hmm

pombear · 25/05/2018 21:32

To be fair, there may well be issues that prevent them presenting as early as others with symptoms due to complex issues such as difficult relationships with primary healthcare due to their presentation as trans, and that some people's lives, because of co-morbid mental health issues, less healthy lifestyles etc, isolation due to feeling 'different' (not suggesting that trans always = that, but suspect it may often do so) just as late presentation affects other groups of people.

And the whole rabbit hole of changing official documents meaning they may not be called for routine checks that would normally affect their biological sex.

I can see there are factors that can affect healthcare, and understanding and support for those issues is helpful.

I find it unhelpful to identifying this support when the trans umbrella is spread so wide that Tara's educational speech includes 'drag queens and kings who dress up for entertainment' (ie if they dress up for entertainment, I assume they present as their biological sex elsewhere, so why does that affect their healthcare treatment? Tom Holland dresses up as Spiderman for entertainment - I'm sure that doesn't present a problem when he goes to his doctor).

And I find it unhelpful when Tara's speech include's those with a sexual fetish in the definition, and then goes on to explain why it's important that healthcare professionals may need to refer to a penis as a clitoris.

It makes me wonder which man I would be treating as a healthcare professional. The one who will be involving me in his sexual fetish asking me to refer to his 'clitoris' or the one who has such dypshoria that I would be affecting his mental health if I referred to his penis as a penis?

And if trans people think I'm transphobic in wanting to know the difference, that flags to me your complete lack of understanding of being a woman.

As before, I think this is a linguistic and ideological own-goal in the end.

Pratchet · 26/05/2018 07:31

I bet no one had questions because they knew they had absolutely nothing to learn from this non expert and were almost certainly in the room due to some diversity trading requirement. They were appalled at the waste of their valuable time and couldn't wait to leave.

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