Class analysis...

[BertrandRussell]

Why do people find it so difficult? Am I being too simplistic and missing something?
White people as a class have more power than black people as a class.. Men as a class are more violent than women as a class. Is there anything controversial there?

And when a complete stranger who happens to share my sex, my race, my social class, or my tennis club does something wrong, am I culpable if I do or say nothing?"
If he or she commits a crime then yes, in law you are

What law is that then?

Yeah, but it’s not a mirror image is it if you are, like Bertrand is, saying she accepts collective responsibility and men should too.

You don’t have to agree with that^.

People are free to believe in individual responsibility.

But your example was not an example of collective responsibility (the idea everyone shares responsibility) it was an example of prejudice (one person from a group is like x so all people from that group are like x).

I call it all out.

But I, as a white middle-class woman, am often not listened to.

So class based analysis is wrong because by doing class based analysis We will ensure that class based discrimination will stay the same or grow rather than wither away to nothing? And we are pointing out that classes exist which is discrimination in itself?

Firstly, classes are blinking obvious to people so we can't wish them away. The classes exist. What matters is behaviours around those classes. Babies recognise same and different to mummy skin colour very early on. They equate same as safe.

I think it more likely that without class based analysis , class based discrimination will continue or grow. I think now that gay people are properly recognised as a class that is discriminated against, their lives have improved as a result. I don't believe that they would have the rights and respect that they have in the uk today if they had not been recognised as suffering from class based discrimination, and actions taken accordingly

I don't think pointing out classes exist is in itself discrimination. I think making generalisations or taking action based on class is discrimination wherever the action has a negative effect on any class

further, It is not really discriminating against men by having an AWS if that list is simply putting women where they would have been if discrimination had not already taken place.

It feels like two different principles are getting confused here.

It's wrong to hold all Muslims responsible for Islamic terrorism, but it could be right to argue that Islamic terrorists more likely to be influenced away from terrorism by fellow Muslims than by others.

Likewise, it's wrong to hold all men responsible for male violence, but it could be right to argue that violent men are more likely to be influenced away from violence by other men.

I believe that there is much that men as individuals can-and should- do to change the behaviour of other individual men. Which will improve society as a whole.

Are women responsible for correcting the behaviour of other women?

Statistically women as a class are responsible for nearly all false rape accusations. Is it your job to change their behaviour?

Well then yes, I would say they both understand the principles of class analysis. They might not fully understand it but they have a level of understanding there don’t they

I think you are lowering the bar as to what constitutes class analysis to a ridiculous extent and rendering it meaningless. Like saying someone has a full understanding of photosynthesis just because they know plants need light to grow.

"And when a complete stranger who happens to share my sex, my race, my social class, or my tennis club does something wrong, am I culpable if I do or say nothing?"
If he or she commits a crime then yes, in law you are

No you are not culpable in law. UK anyway. There is no duty to report a crime far less step into prevent one happening. There are a few exceptions.

You commit a crime if you lie about facts known to you.

Parents and guardians commit a crime if they fail to prevent harm to children.

Anyone subject to financial services regulation has a duty to report suspected money laundering. Failure to do so is a crime.

Did I say your children had a full understanding of class analysis?

If a child understood why plants need light to grow they would have some understanding of photosynthesis wouldn’t they?

Or is this very much a thing where if you don’t fully understand something you don’t understand it at all? I can see the logic in applying that to adults but childhood is inherently a process of learning isn’t it?

Did I say your children had a full understanding of class analysis

No but what I’m saying is that may children aren’t even close to conducting class based analysis. But the seven year old understands what racism is.

You can understand an ism without conducting class based analysis (which is not me saying bin class based analysis by the way, I’ve said it’s useful many times).

QuentinSummers

Ok, so although men as a class do most violence AND men as a class have most power, so most ability to change things, men can't be expected to try to change things as its discriminatory to expect them to
We are fucked then

That isn't what is being said. No one has denied most violence is committed by men. Having identified that it is for individual men to behave better. But what this idea of some sort of vague , hive mind collective responsibility is supposed to achieve is puzzling.

Statistically women as a class are responsible for nearly all false rape accusations. Is it your job to change their behaviour?

So uncomfortable with this collective responsibility thing.

Sorry meant you commit a crime if you lie about facts relating to a crime or lie under oath. Perverting the course of justice/ perjury

"Statistically women as a class are responsible for nearly all false rape accusations. Is it your job to change their behaviour?"
Well, yes. But as the number of such cases are vanishingly small, I am unlikely to be called upon to put my money where my mouth is. Maybe pick something more likely to happen?

Maybe pick something more likely to happen

Extremist terror.

It’s the principle of the thing for me though.

No I know. But children understand things relative to their development. Understanding that racism exists and being able to identify it relies on having a developmentally appropriate understanding of the principles of class analysis doesn’t it?

When a child has a developmentally appropriate reading ability we don’t say that they ‘can’t read’ and saying they can read is ‘reducing reading to such a point that the idea of reading is meaningless’... because they are children... the standards for understanding are adjusted based on expected development.

I stand corrected-I thought people had an obligation to report a crime. I'll remember that!

Well, yes. But as the number of such cases are vanishingly small, I am unlikely to be called upon to put my money where my mouth is. Maybe pick something more likely to happen?

Is collective responsibility dependant on frequency then?

The idea I struggle with is why it is the job of any non violent male to call out/stand against other males who are violent just because they share the same genitalia.

Let's try another example. Class analysis shows us that women as a class take the brunt of caring responsibilities (both for childcare and other family-related care such as elder care) and are economically disadvantaged as a class because of it. This is a factual analysis - no value judgement in it; it is simply true.

My value judgement from this factual class analysis is that society is set up in an unjust way that disadvantages women because I feel care labour has equal social value to economic labour that adds to GDP. I therefore support any policies or campaigns that will support women with unpaid caring responsibilities through cash transfers and services, even though it will not benefit me (as an individual member of the class woman) because I have no caring responsbilities.

The value judgement of other women may be to regard the class analysis as irrelevant because they believe the taking on of caring responsibilities is a matter of personal choice and not for social policy to either support or discourage. Thus the evidence of the class analysis is not something an ideological individualist has any use for.

Class analysis is just a tool. Not a value judgement

"The idea I struggle with is why it is the job of any non violent male to call out/stand against other males who are violent just because they share the same genitalia."

Ah. I struggle to see why it isn't. Because it's not just actual violence-it's all the concomitant "male culture" stuff that make life unpleasant for all women and many men. Why would you not want to do something that makes life better for everyone?

If my friend (who by the way...wouldnt be my friend) made a comment over coffee that it was a ok to falsely accuse someone of rape, i would absolutely tell her where to get off

In the same way as when my friends talk about 'muslims' or 'travellers' or 'black people' in a derogatory manner, or rape myths or 'women being bitches'

If these people put their words into action fuck me yeah i would grass them up

So when i see people argue that as a white woman i should 'stop' these things...i assume thats what they mean

Or rather i hope thats what they mean

Oh it took me so long to type that that bertrand posted again

I think my post is already in agreement with the last post though

Is anyone actually saying ‘just because of genitalia?’

Or is Bertrand saying ‘women are not responsible for calling this out by themselves, men are also responsible and I view men who witness other men being violent/sexism and don’t do or say anything to challenge it are part of the problem’

Because she believes in collective responsibility...

Now, someone might not believe in collective responsibility at all but it’s a bit of a leap to suggest that what Bertrand is suggesting is that it is only men and not anybody else that is responsible for calling it out.

It’s simply that culturally men are not expected to have any responsibility and women are for this issue despite women having virtually no control over the culture of masculinity or the behaviour of men.

Ah. I struggle to see why it isn't. Because it's not just actual violence-it's all the concomitant "male culture" stuff that make life unpleasant for all women and many men. Why would you not want to do something that makes life better for everyone?

Well why should they? Calling out a stranger in the pub for violent attitudes/tendencies against women is likely to result in said non violent man being filled in. And to do that on behalf of another group with no direct benefit to their self seems rather stupid to me.

Now, someone might not believe in collective responsibility at all but it’s a bit of a leap to suggest that what Bertrand is suggesting is that it is only men and not anybody else that is responsible for calling it out.

Fair enough, I was reading it as Bertrand suggesting it's all down to men.

That’s less of a ‘why should they?’ And more of a ‘why should anyone?’

You see it’s just another individual vs collective responsibility divide.