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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

Lily Madigan - to celebrate 300 women leaving LP with a party

208 replies

LaSqrrl · 13/05/2018 00:49

The facebook event now seems removed, but Feminist Current does have the screenshot before it disappeared.

Constituency Labour Party Women’s Officer for Rochester and Strood, Lily Madigan, a trans-identified male, plans to host a party to celebrate women leaving the Labour Party in protest of Labour’s policy allowing men to self-identify their way onto all women candidate shortlists.

(Sorry if this one has been posted before, I looked, but could not see a matching thread)

I am posting this to illustrate that TRAs do not want to join 'Class Woman', but to take over 'Class Woman' and throw out the existing inhabitants, then celebrate their victory over women (eg 'enjoy your erasure'). This is why 'we cannot get along' and have zero in common with them.

Lily Madigan - to celebrate 300 women leaving LP with a party
OP posts:
Terfing · 14/05/2018 13:07

I think MN are being fair here actually. They are trying their best to keep discussion flowing. I think initials and 'they' are a fair compromise.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 14/05/2018 13:12

MNHQ are doing their best and I definitely appreciate the efforts they are making, but it is beyond depressing that we are already at the point where it isn't feasible for them to allow us to tell the truth about biological sex.
It didn't take long and it makes me wonder what else will be unsayable 5 years from now.

whyaresquishiesnotsquishy · 14/05/2018 16:06

LM doesn't show us any respect, why should we?

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 14/05/2018 16:11

Because it is a woman's place to be respectful and submissive towards our overlords, Squishy.
In times to come, historians will identify this moment when women's speech was suppressed again.

SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace · 14/05/2018 16:18

I will not use 'she' for LM no matter how much LM would prefer it.

If only I could put my finger on why the idea that LM's preferences are more important than the preferences of women seemed a bit wrong or unfair or uncannily familiar.....

'They' is confusing because there is - thanks be to fuck - only one LM. So LM every time I want to refer to LM and the latest thing LM has done, it is.

If they can make our language so awkward and confusing to use that it inhibits the free flow of discourse, it'll only be a matter of time before we all give up anyway, I suppose.

SporadicSpartacus · 14/05/2018 16:29

As a linguist, the idea that anyone can own / mandate the use of a particular pronoun is both prescriptive (ie the not-good way of effecting language change) and staggeringly arrogant. It’s a preference. We don’t all get what we prefer all the time, and there’s a hell of a lot more to it than simple courtesy. Changing the language will change the thoughts people are capable of articulating, and it’s a lot more effort to think of something there isn’t a word for.

That said, it is really helpful to have a clearly worded directive on what is/isn’t acceptable on this forum. I really don’t want to make MNHQ’s job any harder, and I expect they’ve taken advice on what is/isn’t going to get them sued. Perhaps this falls into the ‘is’ category.

Branleuse · 14/05/2018 16:38

Madigan is a one trick pony. Only gives a shit about trans issues and nothing else. Its a complete insult that they are seen as in any way competent to do this job. They would have NEVER employed a teenage girl for the job.

When you look at someone like mhairi black who is also very young, and yet understands womens issues and politics compare her to Madigan, its hard to take Labour seriously now

SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace · 14/05/2018 17:19

That said, it is really helpful to have a clearly worded directive on what is/isn’t acceptable on this forum. I really don’t want to make MNHQ’s job any harder, and I expect they’ve taken advice on what is/isn’t going to get them sued. Perhaps this falls into the ‘is’ category

Yes, I agree with this.

TerfsUp · 14/05/2018 17:22

I don't like having to use incorrect pronouns but I understand MNHQ's take on this.

TerfsUp · 14/05/2018 17:22

They would have NEVER employed a teenage girl for the job.

While I agree with the sentiment LM is elected, not employed.

Tinkletinklelittlebat · 14/05/2018 17:26

the idea that anyone can ...mandate the use of a particular pronoun is .. staggeringly arrogant

Yes. It really is.

When it's mandated as forced, compelled 'politeness' from recipients of blatant provocation, superiority and gleeful derogation to the deliverer - who is under no compulsion whatever to meet anything like the same standards of courtesy or respect, there are other words for it.

But cheer up chaps. Our politicians think women being abused, oppressed, treated as subhuman and forced to bow to a specific group as their superiors is a wonderful, liberating, progressive thing. I mean just look at the kindness, compassion, tolerance, respect for others and love that oozes from it.

User314 · 14/05/2018 17:30

Omg. That is awful.

SirVixofVixHall · 14/05/2018 18:06

So we would also have to use “she “ for Ian Huntley ?
I refuse to use incorrect pronouns for males who hate women.

SirVixofVixHall · 14/05/2018 18:07

Agree Branleuse.

Ereshkigal · 14/05/2018 18:09

But cheer up chaps. Our politicians think women being abused, oppressed, treated as subhuman and forced to bow to a specific group as their superiors is a wonderful, liberating, progressive thing. I mean just look at the kindness, compassion, tolerance, respect for others and love that oozes from it.

This is it. This is what I find most offensive and upsetting. It's a blatant, hide in plain sight, dominance display. I wish people would wake up to the galloping narcissism and power games they are enabling.

Ereshkigal · 14/05/2018 18:10

Just don't use she. It's not ideal, but you can get around it.

Ereshkigal · 14/05/2018 18:10

Or he.

Tinkletinklelittlebat · 14/05/2018 18:20

I wish people would wake up

This is what makes me so angry with the political establishment of every party and the government of this country. It's their job to pick up on this kind of thing, and they're all flapping their flippers and braying approval like a bunch of sealions at a fish. We have a very few journalists who dare to speak the truth and yet the government's just called them in and told them all off for doing it.

I'm left wondering is there really something this group have over all political bodies in terms of money or power, is there some mighty agenda that requires the major suppression of and devoicing of women to achieve and this is a step on the way to the grand plan? Or are they all really just this bloody irresponsible and stupid? Is there anyone in power with any grain of sense or have we voted in a bunch of reality tv stars who really can't look up from their own personal hobbyhorses to realise what they're waving through?

What the fuck do they think is going to happen if they successfully shut down women enough to force this through? What do they think white van man is going to do when reality hits him and sex crimes against women and girls triple? Do they really think the average person in the street is going to just go along with this?

Ereshkigal · 14/05/2018 18:31

We have a very few journalists who dare to speak the truth and yet the government's just called them in and told them all off for doing it.

Yes.

Original poster
LaSqrrl · 14/05/2018 23:22

It's a blatant, hide in plain sight, dominance display.

Indeed it is. Reminds us of our 'place', in a "yes sir, no sir" way. I begrudgingly use the alternatives ('they' 'initials' or even 'surname'). But it does interrupt the train of thought, and it is possible to make mistakes and let one 'slip' (so a bit ageist really, against us oldies).

OP posts:
SporadicSpartacus · 15/05/2018 07:10

Maybe we could make the bar even higher and conduct our discussions in a language that doesn’t have gender pronouns.

AsAProfessionalFekko · 15/05/2018 07:16

Maybe we are all just Cousin It?

sashh · 15/05/2018 07:28

Re pronouns.

Why should we have to use the incorrect pronoun? If we were speaking/writing in just about any language both male and female pronouns would be being used eg in French no one says a dog is being 'misgendered' when male pronouns are used regardless of whether the dog is male or female.

The only gender neutral pronoun I can think of to use about a third party is 'it'. Would the use of 'it' be acceptable to MNHQ?

BlackeyedSusan · 15/05/2018 07:32

grr... it is annoying to refer to hes as shes or shes as hes when they are not, but, for the sake of mnhq, not the hes or shes in question, then I will try not to get it wrong, though it will be to me typing a lie, and distressing in itself, as it is plain bloody wrong... ( It is things like this that make me wonder whether I really need to ask for a referral from the GP for ASD (when your son is diagnosed, look at your dad, look at your daughter, then look in the mirror) ) Some people I can see as the opposite gender, others not, and there is not a bloody lot I can do about that, just as I can not tune out the annoying noises, or control my sensory over reactions It is just the way the brain is wired.

JoanSummers · 15/05/2018 07:52

Can a Web forum be used by a person who doesn't use it because some members there use the correct, biologically and legally, pronoun for them?

It is interesting how so many men are happy to use porn sites full of incredibly offensive sexually and racially charged language, but women can't even state reality without being threatened into silence.

This is part of the male privilege Madigan benefits from. Madigan treats women like shit and dehumanises us at every opportunity (e.g. with stunts like the one in the OP) but we get told off for using accurate pronouns.

This is where "its just polite" gets us.