Muslim rights vs Transgender rights

[DJLippy]

A beauty Salon in Ontario in Canada is being sued because a Muslim beautician refused to wax a transgeder woman's legs for religious reasons. It's being likened to refusing to serve gay people.

Is the Muslim community in the UK aware of the impact that self-ID would have on their right to practice their religion?

windsor.ctvnews.ca/human-rights-application-launched-against-windsor-body-waxing-business-by-transgender-woman-1.3925911#_gus&_gucid=&_gup=twitter&_gsc=2lV42Ii

Any employee hired to perform personal services on women's bodies should not be required to perform personal services to men's bodies. I don't care what her religion is, I think this right is universal.

Just adding girl guides to the list of same sex spaces that Muslim girls may not now be able to access due to male bodied people in sleeping areas.

My dd also shares student halls that are segregated on gender grounds. Of four girls in her apartment, one is Muslim. Halls are allocated on gender.
The whole thing is a disaster. No girl or woman, Muslim or otherwise, should be forced by law to carry out intimate services to, accept intimate services from, or share intimate / sleeping spaces with, male bodied people.

R0wantrees
Do you mean Lucy Masoud, the Firefighter? I think she spoke of some of the problems.

Regardless of religion, no woman should be forced to perform any act that involves physical contact they are uncomfortable with. The same the other way - no man should either. This is a very basic tenet of individual rights and boundaries. It is not comparable to a service like baking a cake - it’s actual physical contact.

Once again, the act of a woman saying no is seen as an offence. No means no. It’s not an invitation to negotiate. When we are in a situation where a woman saying no to a man results in a lawsuit and a threat to her livlihood, we are heading down a very dark road.

I do think this issue should be publicised more in religious communities - it risks women of faith being completely pushed out of the public sphere.

Do you mean Lucy Masoud, the Firefighter?
Wasn't that about sleeping (etc) arrangements in the fire station (not necessarily to do with Muslim women). I am way too lazy to google at the mo!

My hairdresser doesn't take men. She doesn't take boys either. Probably because she's not experienced in cutting males' hair but also because she prefers to cut womens's hair.

Is this a baker shop case too? Are there going to be test cases for everything?

The speaker that I'm thinking of was Aysha Iqbal and she was talking about Odara Women's support network at the Birmingham WPUK meeting. It has (from the website) a "brand new Sanctuary and Wellbeing Centre a safe, relaxing and soothing women-only space that allows you to unwind and meet other like-minded women. Our Centre is the only spa, gym, hammam, pool and hot tub in Birmingham exclusively for women."

It is for women of all faiths & none and so I think that the concerns raised were that some women from particular faiths or cultures could become excluded by a change to status as 'women-only'. I'm sorry that I can't find the talk and don't want to misrepresent what she said. It sounds like a really interesting project.

Link is here: www.odara.org.uk

I don't think DuchyDuke speaks the truth.

Pakistan is very pro trans, but fundamentally it sees transwomen as men.

So does Saudi Arabia.

tribune.com.pk/story/1637945/1-first-pakistan-send-trans-persons-hajj-volunteers/

Indonesian Wikipedia explains the position

<a class="break-all" href="https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=id&u=id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waria&prev=search" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=id&u=id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waria&prev=search

"Waria [Indonesian word for transgender, meaning 'ladyboy'] are men who play the role of women"

Iran has the death penalty for homosexuality and encourages gay men to have surgery and become transgender, and has claimed to have no gays in the country. The transgender status is a convenient religious fiction to erase homosexuality.

If I had any kind of an 'in' to religious communities such as Islam or orthodox Judaism I would certainly be letting them know what may be going to happen if the GRA amendments go through. I suspect, like most people, they have no idea and they would be staunch allies against this crap.

Is anyone on here a member of those faiths, or has discussed the GRA amendments in that setting & perhaps could get something off the ground?

I'm not but think it's really important to raise awareness with these groups - it's going to have a big impact on their ability to participate in public life.

WPUK should try to get some people to their next meeting...

Where do genitals come into it? the OP said legs! I do think the link between this and homophobia is interesting. It reminds me of a case in the news a while back where a religious Christian couple were in trouble for refusing to bake a cake for a gay couple's party as they said they didn't approve. Sorry, on phone so can't link. It's not really much different here, is it? Religion, transphobia or homophobia... much of a muchness.

@MargeH @KirstenRaymonde It was a Sack & Crack Wax he requested!!!!

@Rufustheyawningreindeer Are you colour blind?! It's Blue!!!!

It was a Sack & Crack Wax he requested!!!!
I am shocked to hear that they were less than forthcoming with the news media and possibly the HR Tribunal when they filed their complaint about women saying no to them.

Religion, transphobia or homophobia... much of a muchness

Not really. ‘Transphobic’ has come to mean merely disagreeing with an ideology, and therefore in danger of losing its value when identifying true discrimination. In any case, there’s a big difference between baking a cake, and performing a personal grooming service for someone, whether that is on their legs or genitals. Either involves intimate physical touching and being alone with the client. I believe no one should be under legal compulsion to do that.

it's really important to raise awareness with these groups - it's going to have a big impact on their ability to participate in public life.

It’s difficult to find a way to word this - but, from my secular perspective, much of conservative patriarchal religious practice seems to be designed to do just that, limit women’s ability to participate in public life and wider society, keep them in the home, keep them under the control of men (their fathers, brothers, husbands). I’m sure others would not see it that way, but it’s an interpretation as I said from an outsiders perspective from personal observation and interactions. So pursuing this avenue may not yield as easy an alliance as has been suggested. And the impetus for approaching Muslim women’s groups should be lead by concern for the rights and safety of women and girls, and how we (society) can best protect these, especially when it comes to intersections of religious or cultural practices. Not from a desire to booster numbers on any ‘side’, not that that’s what any PPs are meaning, but how things could easily come across if not very carefully worded.

Clearly there are Islamic feminists active, two mentioned already in this thread who have not just attended but spoken at WPUK meetings. It seems reasonable to approach these women and others who represent Muslim women’s groups and just ask what their views and needs are when it comes to GRA reform and be debate around gender self-identification and how the wider feminist movement can best support them.

A ManFriday event at a mosque may make the point very clearly, actually, but only if the activists involved were Muslim in the first place.

Religion, transphobia or homophobia

Unless she would have been perfectly happy to treat a different man this has absolutely nothing to do with transphobia.

Is it sick

Gosh i must have been tired

Ds has a beautiful pink trilby...i was obviously projecting

"they will need to see what is defined as a woman in the Quran"

The understanding of that time & place was that Woman = Girl who has had her period, whether that's age 10 or 16.

I'm puzzled by the claim downthread that "within most forms of Islam itself the definition of women is flexible. Chances are if the trans woman had gone to another muslim salon, even next door, she would have been allowed". I really don't think so. What "forms of Islam" and how exactly is "definition of women flexible"?

windsorstar.com/news/local-news/transgender-woman-files-human-rights-complaint-against-windsor-spa

This is a local news article.
The male owner of the salon has gone to the press to save his business.
In the article it says the male caller asked for a Brazilian. Owner said that only trained staff was on sick and Muslim woman wasn’t able to do it. (I assume she wouldn’t be trained even if she was able to treat male clients)
That seems reasonable enough to me it’s like phoning a dress shop and complaining they can’t sell you a car.
Why the caller couldn’t call the next salon in the phone box I don’t know.
So I do wonder if the complainant has taken this legal action to force the judge to say he’s a woman so his his genitals aren’t male to trump the Muslim woman’s objections.

Tbf, whether his scrotum is male or female (now there’s a sentence that makes NO SENSE, but still), it’s still a scrotum, and a ‘Brazilian’ is a style of waxing performed on vulvas.

Phone book obviously

cf Refusal of treatments in salons / spas for women who have had a cancer diagnosis.

Being refused a treatment is a very common occurrence and any online forum where women with a cancer diagnosis meet will have posts describing the embarrassment / disappointment / frustration of being told that they cannot be treated. In some situations this can be a blanket refusal.

I'm not aware of any women in such situations suing. What is happening instead is that spas etc that have better provision are being identified, or individually people just find another salon.
Women are sometimes pre-warned through conversations with others that they may have to deal with this, it's still difficult though, the registration forms are usually exactly the same whether you are hoping to have a manicure, bikini wax or a full body massage.

www.theguardian.com/travel/2015/jun/23/spa-breaks-people-with-cancer-recovery-retreats

www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-5323043/Cancer-patients-treated-like-lepers-leading-spas.html

I was talking to DH about this last night and he was struggling to understand and said

"so, in layman's terms, someone who was born a male, but lives 'as a woman' is trying to legally oblige a muslim woman to wax their balls? You can't make someone wax your balls, no matter who you are? Surely?"

Which sums it up really doesn't it?

Link:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3241837-Why-has-the-trans-lobby-been-so-successful?pg=5

Changing rooms:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3225459-Primark-Coventry-challenged-for-asking-trans-woman-for-ID-before-allowing-entry-to-female-changing-rooms

Women's Swim:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3126114-Hampstead-Heath-Womens-Pond?pg=1

School loos for girls:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3209839-The-Police-making-policy-for-schools

You can't make someone wax your balls, no matter who you are? Surely?

Well yes and no. There is equalities legislation such that it some situations a business would be in breach of the law for refusing to wax your balls. I don’t believe the salon is breaking any laws in the story described though.