Muslim rights vs Transgender rights

[DJLippy]

A beauty Salon in Ontario in Canada is being sued because a Muslim beautician refused to wax a transgeder woman's legs for religious reasons. It's being likened to refusing to serve gay people.

Is the Muslim community in the UK aware of the impact that self-ID would have on their right to practice their religion?

windsor.ctvnews.ca/human-rights-application-launched-against-windsor-body-waxing-business-by-transgender-woman-1.3925911#_gus&_gucid=&_gup=twitter&_gsc=2lV42Ii

Is he talking the fucking piss? Man with hat is now a woman.

DJ

Get with the programme

The hat is PINK!!

Jeez

I would like to do a ManFriday event at a mosque - but attending prayers as a man is incredibly offensive. I saw a post on twitter from somebody saying that men were wearing a hijab and now saying they were Muslim women. I can guarantee you can't wear jeans and be accepted as a man.

Would be good to go to a mosque and tell them about the law and how it could impact their rights. Does anybody know if this is discussed anywhere?

Yup I've been banging on about the effect on Muslim and other women who have a sex-segregation aspect to their faith.
If single sex facilities can not be guaranteed I worry that some may have to consider withdrawing from public/private spaces (changing rooms, toilets) where currently it's safe space where scarves and abayas come off.

Where I live (a relatively progressive Muslim country); it is illegal for a man to wear women's clothing or to impersonate a woman. He would be arrested.
I would love to see a transactivist come to try to argue their case over here!!

Would be interesting to hear from a mosques point of view. OP: you should write to one ?

This really really really fucks me off.

Nobody has an answer for me. They say that I shouldn't speak for Muslim women. Fuck off - isn't this intersectional? Fighting on behalf of my Muslim sisters? Nope, this is me being a colonialist....

I guess Muslim (and Jewish, etc) women’s groups need to come to the table on this.

My dad is a Muslim...

I live in a town with a large Muslim community maybe it would be good to reach out? I need some more info though - I'm not an expert! I know that Lucy Masooud talked about her battle for a female changing room as a Muslim lesbian in fire service. Is there anything formally written about this?

I’m not saying as non-Muslims we shouldn’t speak up for Muslim women btw (far from it, in fact, can everyone head over to this thread and do just that please www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3245436-URGENT-PLEASE-SIGN-PETITION-young-woman-forced-marriage-and-rape-victim-facing-death-sentence )

But we (non-Muslim feminists) shouldn’t be speaking over Muslim women, we should be asking what do they want and how can we support that, and I honestly don’t know what Muslim women want on this at the moment. If it is even a widely discussed or acknowledged issue for the Muslim community in the UK.

The intersection between religious conservatism and transactivism makes me very uncomfortable TBH

I understand the point about needing to understand how things like bathroom policies impact on all women, including those with a faith that precludes them sharing spaces with men without a chaperone, or the need to adjust clothing without doing so in front of a man

BUT

I don't want to use conservative patriarchal strictures in order to fight against TRA ideology, because I think it's appalling that a woman could be spurned by her family for having physical contact with a non-family male in a professional context. I oppose the hijab and the niqab, so it would be hypocritical of me to use them as a reason to object to unisex toilets where women might want to adjust their attire in a single sex environment

In relation to mosques, I suspect it's very simple in that they will simply ignore any TRAs that attempt to enter the wrong sex segregated space, and not particularly care about whether they have a GRC or not.

I do, however, really worry about the impact on girls from conservative backgrounds of young transwomen wanting to access single sex spaces in schools. Girls will be withdrawn from school to avoid mingling, particularly in changing rooms. We should, however, be fighting this on two fronts: one is keeping men and boys out of women and girls' spaces; the other is ending oppressive and sexist attitudes that tie women and girls to the home

It isn’t widely discussed in the Muslim female community. Current discussions are mainly how do we stop/ recognise radicalisation, making sure your marriage is legal (not just nikkah) and you know your legal rights in a divorce . However it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t raise it.
Like someone else said they will need to see what is defined as a woman in the Quran

I don’t know where you live but in Manchester there is the British Muslim Heritage centre which welcomes debate and discussion. Write to them ?

Not for being gay, the Transgender person was quite possibly straight.

Do you mean straight as in liking women, or straight as in liking men?

There IS no gay or straight in a trans world. Why LG&B align themselves with T is beyond me.

@Cwenthryth Agreed I wouldn't speak for Muslim women but it's a point that I make on twitter - that removing sex segregation in public space would put a barrier up for Muslim women's engagement in society.

That's a good idea about writing to the Muslim Heritage Centre, but I need to know a bit more about the law. It's such a complex subject.

I think that engaging with Muslim women's groups is good because self-ID is a subject which women grasp so much quicker than men...

Duchyduke can you link any articles to support the statement most Muslim's idea of what is a woman is flexible.
I don't think most Muslim people are even aware of labour parties policy on transgender and self ID. I bet they will lose votes when they finally do.
This is similar to court case involving Northern Ireland couple and the gay wedding cake. Which human right is more important religious or gay rights.
Just had a horrible thought what if your a rape victim who requests only female doctor to examine you otherwise you won't report the crime. And they bring along a person calling themselves female but is quite obviously man in a dress. Whose rights are more important then.
I hope the woman won't feel like she's pressured into agreeing into examination because she doesn't want to be called transphobic

Contact these.... www.mwnuk.co.ukm/

Take genitals out of it and the principle is the same, nobody should be forced to have physical contact with someone they don't want to.

I don’t agree I think the genitals are pretty crucial to this being ok. It wouldn’t be ok to refuse to serve black women for example.

I thought beauticians regularly waxed men anyway

Each province has its own human rights code and there’s also the federal Human Rights Act, which say there are certain grounds on which a person can’t be discriminated against. Those include:

race;
national or ethnic origin;
colour;
religion;
age;
sex (includes pregnancy);
sexual orientation;
marital status;
family status;
disability;
religion;
conviction for an offence for which they’ve been pardoned or in respect of which a record suspension has been ordered;

...
In 2004, B.C. resident Ralph Stopps was denied membership at a women’s-only gym. It may sounds like discrimination, but the B.C. human hights tribunal rejected his claim. While it found he was clearly denied membership based on his gender, he failed to demonstrate two important things: that his human dignity was adversely affected by the rejection and that he somehow suffered as a result.

The tribunal also concluded his case was basically a political stunt, he fully expected to be rejected, and did it only to make a human rights complaint.

From Findlaw Canada.

What Grasslands said. I would have refused on health and safety grounds.

If the case involved a sack and crack it wasn't just a leg wax was it?

I feel like some people deliberately target businesses just to get publicity

There's plenty of places that would be ok with catering for this client upon learning they were trans, why target a Muslim beauty therapist? If they'd just gone to a salon that did both men and women it would be a non issue surely?

All religions where men and women mingling is discouraged need to be made aware of these dangerous policies.
They will result in Muslim and Jewish women withdrawing from society.

There have been a number of cases where transgender identified males try to force women to participate in their fetishes under threat of a lawsuit if they refuse.
It seems that Canada is doomed to repeat the Vancouver Rape Relief experience over and over until the women submit.

I was just signing up to an event on Eventbrite and browsing others, came across this happening today

www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/raise-your-gays-gender-variance-sexuality-diversity-in-islam-raiseyourgaze-tickets-44671929945?aff=eiosprexshreclip&ref=eiosprexshreclip

Sadly I’m working today or I’d really love to have gone and learned and listened to inform myself and understand this intersection better. But clearly, some people are talking about this.

I then typed “feminism + Islam” into the search box and found this event as well

www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/guarded-encounters-representing-gender-and-islam-across-cultures-tickets-43748073666?aff=eiosprexshreclip&ref=eiosprexshreclip

I might have a bit of a google later looking at the speakers at these events and their work etc.