Muslim rights vs Transgender rights

[DJLippy]

A beauty Salon in Ontario in Canada is being sued because a Muslim beautician refused to wax a transgeder woman's legs for religious reasons. It's being likened to refusing to serve gay people.

Is the Muslim community in the UK aware of the impact that self-ID would have on their right to practice their religion?

windsor.ctvnews.ca/human-rights-application-launched-against-windsor-body-waxing-business-by-transgender-woman-1.3925911#_gus&_gucid=&_gup=twitter&_gsc=2lV42Ii

Btw I think Olenna raises an important point about being very uncomfortable as a feminist ‘defending’ patriarchal/sexually discriminating religious practices and indeed basically using them to counter trans ideology. There’s a fine line to tread here and I think it’s important to take the lead from Muslim women/’s groups and Islamic feminism.

This is kind of where the Islamic desire to 'trans away the gay' and the imperative that 'Muslim women don't mix with unrelated males' collide.

Iran used to have one of the highest trans populations, mainly because there was a death sentence 'incentive system' for being gay. I suspect though, given trans 'incentive', it probably included castration etc, and perhaps this was deemed less of a threat to Muslim women and their spaces?

And of course Jewish women have a lot of their own female-only things as well.

Olennas: The intersection between religious conservatism and transactivism makes me very uncomfortable TBH

Well yes it is. But currently men on the Left are the prime movers in this trans thing, and it has been primarily conservative women that have joined us in being allies.

It’s not clear whether she would have been able to refuse service to a man.

This is something I do worry about, and a point I made when I wrote to my MP. I am not a Muslim woman, however I live in a city well known for its multiculturalism, and many issues that have been associated with that. There is already a cultural divide in this city, and yes, some people are working hard to overcome that. But not all.

A hot topic is the marginalisation of Muslim women, as a PP said, the legality of marriages, but even recently in the news here, honor killings, forced marriages, the isolation of women. It concerns me, that if Muslim women feel unable to access women only spaces for support then this further isolates then. And if the only women only spaces they can access are also Muslim only spaces, does this help break down barriers? And I don’t think the tranwomen are women trope helps here, because while that may be widely accepted, if it isn’t accepted by the women needing those spaces they simply won’t access the support those spaces provide.

I know that might be a bit garbled, and I hope I’m not speaking g on behalf of Muslim women, and I know this wouldn’t apply to all Muslim women, but it is based on my experience of living here.

I don’t post here very often, but am a committed GC lurker, and happy to try and learn & engage more.

As a Muslim woman I am very worried and I am thankful to you all for thinking about women of faith who cannot share spaces with males . I am not sure what you mean by the definition of "woman" is flexible. There is some tolerance with regards to "eunuchs" and feminine men but it doesn't make them women. The Iranian position is not shared by the majority of Muslims in the UK who are Sunni. There is very little awareness of these issues in the Muslim community and yes, it might lead to further marginalisation of vulnerable women. I raised this issue on Twitter and was told I should stay home . Personally I am also uncomfortable with the idea that I would have to use my faith as an excuse to defend my need for single-sex spaces. All women should be entitled to privacy and dignity if needed.

raised this issue on Twitter and was told I should stay home.

How woke.

Personally I am also uncomfortable with the idea that I would have to use my faith as an excuse to defend my need for single-sex spaces. All women should be entitled to privacy and dignity if needed.

This.

I was talking to my beautician about this. She is trained to do 'intimate waxing' on female bodies but the salon does not have any male treatments available. She said it is a different training needed and a totally different service provision that they do not want to train for. She is so anxious about being sued that they are not stopping doing female waxing - which seems absurd.

I raised this issue on Twitter and was told I should stay home

LM of the Labour party said that if muslim women can't share with transwomen they should create their own seperate spaces.

@Opheliah interesting, as my (female) labour MP ‘recognises’ concerns around all female spaces. She did not however respond to my specific concerns regarding the impact on intergration 🙄

AFAIK scrotal waxing needs specific training as it is very delicate skin and easily damaged. If the beautician wasn't trained in it (which I suspect a Muslim women would probably give a hard pass on that module) then the individual should be grateful that they were refused.

I'm sure there are establishments that offer crack and sack waxing, why not go to one of those?

Oh and the creep in the hat. What that article fails to mention is that that individual was not refused a make-up tutorial because they were transgender. They were refused because they had been stalking the owner for some time; staring into the window at her, following her to her car etc and she felt unsafe being in a room alone with them. But hey, we all now know that women's fear of creepy behaviour is bigotry and prejudice, so perhaps they were right to sue.

Katya: It concerns me, that if Muslim women feel unable to access women only spaces for support then this further isolates then.

Indeed, this is a big problem. There is some support for Muslim women, but really limited to major cities.

malaguena: There is some tolerance with regards to "eunuchs" and feminine men but it doesn't make them women.

I half suspected that, to be honest. Seemed like the compromise situation of not tolerating gay men, 'insisting' they trans, then, what?

There is very little awareness of these issues in the Muslim community and yes, it might lead to further marginalisation of vulnerable women. I raised this issue on Twitter and was told I should stay home

This is an example of throwing a group of women 'under the bus' for male concerns. That is completely out of order to tell you to 'stay at home'. A number of critics have insisted that the radical feminists are 'scare mongering' when we say that all signs are pointing to a shift that women are being forced back into 'the private sphere' (code for: stay at home). And you have really provided an example that this is the sentiment.

Personally I am also uncomfortable with the idea that I would have to use my faith as an excuse to defend my need for single-sex spaces. All women should be entitled to privacy and dignity if needed.

It is not really limited to Muslim women, but Jewish women as well. And if I am to use the example from Australia, the Aboriginal women have specific women-only rituals, spaces, etc. (The Aboriginal men do too actually). So sex segregation is not unique, it is practiced in varying degrees across many cultures/religions. The Aboriginal example is cultural, not religious, but could be deemed 'spiritual'.

It is not that 'your faith' is being used as an excuse - it does effect many women beyond Islam. It is merely part, and I guess, more of a 'shorthand' used because it is quite an obvious one of sex segregation on religious grounds. It is also unfortunate, but the Equality Act seems to give more protection for religious beliefs, rather than the privacy/dignity of those 'merely born female'. So your final sentence 'All women should be entitled to privacy and dignity' is actually our main aim. The Muslim example is really just one of many scenarios - which also includes OB/GYN services, women-only refuges, the safety of women in prison - all of it.

Thank you for making your thoughts heard on this thread. It is important to hear from all groups of women affected by this ('stakeholders' in the lingo). Please don't feel you are being used - you are not - it affects so many women from so many backgrounds, situations, beliefs, and of course, female safety.

AFAIK scrotal waxing needs specific training as it is very delicate skin and easily damaged.

I have heard that too, and it makes sense, given it is really loose skin and all. I would imagine, quite a deal of experience needed to offer that service.

But men are not the sharpest crayons in the box. They would rather risk injury than to be told 'no' or listen to common sense. Or, basically, they are going to sue either way.

I've been thinking through some liikely issues and so far I have

-School policy re trans children & impact Muslim girls
-Sex segregated services like female only swim sessions
-Public WC's/changing rooms
-Healthcare provision and right to a female nurse/doctor

I would love some feedback from Muslim women who can think of any other impacts that replacing sex with gender could have?

My real concern is that this forces Muslim out of public life. I don't want to be the crusading white woman and tell them what to do but it's really important to raise awareness. I''m pretty sure they'll understand instantly how batshit sinister when they it's explained. Muslim women don't need me to save them - I just want to get them on our side. #Recruitment

I completely agree with you LaSqrrl, I am sorry I didn't express myself clearly with faith being "used as an excuse". I meant any woman should have access to female-only spaces without the need to justify herself by saying I'm Muslim/ Jewish/ a rape survivor.

Sorry for the autostraddle link but...
www.autostraddle.com/a-muslim-rupaul-at-the-dawn-of-islam-tuwais-and-the-mukhannathun-198612/

This is the only hadith etc I have come across.

However, there's recently been similar lefty pro-TRA articles in dawn.com as there have been in the Guardian, and now Pakistan has adopted self-ID. There will be some coverage around this I imagine.

I think when Muslim women realise that 80% of transwomen keep fully intact genitalia they will be pretty unhappy with just accepting them

Not sure how the third gender works in Islamic society. Do they have their own spaces or can they mingle freely with the women? With a penis I don't think this is at all likely. Surely this is enshrining trans isolation into law?

I know a muslim mum at my kids school, who's eight year old daughter had never been in a swimming pool until they started lessons with the school, because all the local pools have windows to the street and the mum wouldn't go in them, even if it was an all women's swim session and she was wearing a burkini (she was happy for her under 12 year old daughters to go in them, but her husband is a non-swimmer, so had nobody to supervise).

Other muslim women I know (including my SIL's) are less concerned about being in mixed areas, but it would certainly impact some muslim women if all spaces were essentially unisex.

Oh sorry malaguena, I did think that you seemed a bit offended. I assure you, the issue is broader than that. It is 3.5 billion reasons broader.

I get that it may appear that sometimes, bringing up these points for various groups of women can appear superficial. However, generally, it is not possible to raise all the inter-related issues, so a few key points get raised. I lived for many years in the East End, so I get some of the complexities involved.

I think when Muslim women realise that 80% of transwomen keep fully intact genitalia they will be pretty unhappy with just accepting them

Situations like Iran I think are different. These are gay dudes, and as far as I know, get castrated at least. Forced transsexuals in our terms.

The UK, US, AU etc, completely different - the 'transgenders' are the majority of trans, het dudes, most of whom will not get the chop.

In Pakistan it looks like a mix of both

India and Pakistan is a bit of both. A lot of places in Indo-Iranian areas don’t discriminate, some do. It just depends where you go.

Women from more conservative cultures are another reason I feel strongly about this. Many (not all) are oppressed and marginalised as it is. Self ID could force many to have to retreat from any kind of community life and that is simply not acceptable.

I agree as a white woman this is a fine line and I don't want to cross it, I do however want women of those cultures to know they are part of why I am fighting self ID.

What can we do?

As a Catholic I was raised to be modest and I feel very uncomfortable with the idea of males in female spaces. Surely this is my right? But I agree, we shouldn’t have to use religion. ALL women’s rights to privacy and dignity should count.

There was , I'm sure, a speaker at WPUK Birmingham who spoke about a group for Muslim women and the implications if it were affected. I've looked on the WPUK website and can't see a video of her speech....