Channel 4's Genderquake Debate is heavily criticised/ boycotted(?) by prominent transgender activists & allies .

[R0wantrees]

Transgender campaigners and organisations have released an open letter to Channel 4 criticising Genderquake, a season of programmes touted as an exploration of the gender debate, as "counterproductive".
Signees are particularly concerned about Genderquake: The Debate, a studio discussion hosted by Cathy Newman that promises to look at what gender means in 2018. It will discuss topics including: 'what defines our gender identity', 'how that affects our rights', 'should it be easier to change gender' and 'does gender matter'.

The letter, published by indy100 in full below, argues that the debate will give legitimacy to transphobia, prejudice and the notion that trans identities are up for discussion. This concern is presumably stoked by the presence of Australian-born academic and writer Germaine Greer on the panel, who has previously said transgender women "can't be women". continues...

"The letter is published in full below and has been signed by dozens of prominent transgender and non-binary activists and campaigners - and allies - alike, including Fox Fisher, Owl, Stephanie Hirst, Juno Roche, Travis Alabanza, Kate Llewellyn, Jack Monroe and India Willoughby."

www.indy100.com/article/genderquake-the-debate-transphobia-channel-4-open-letter-campaigners-germaine-greer-8341481

I feel fairly positive about the debate.

Caitlyn Jenner came across as completely unfazed by the existence of the debate and that normalises it and enables us to keep having conversations.

What's more the whole genderquake programme was higher quality than expected and introduced some really useful ideas (like the lesbian who thought she must be trans but realised she was gay)

Normalising the debate is the aim, surely? Getting on the pitch and playing the game in a civic society.

PS they need Magdalene Berns next time!

As people said, Munroe heckled Heather Brunskell Evans in Bristol. No one asked for Munroe to be thrown out. Munroe flounced. I wonder if that will be shown and if so how it will be spun in the upcoming MB documentary.

"Power to the hecklers, the warrior women prepared to be visible and stand up for all of us."

From what I've seen on Twitter and Huff Post etc, the hecklers last night gave more power to the TRAs, another rod to beat us with.

I do understand the points you and Assigned are making about not sitting pretty when faced with clear bias, but I can't help but think that if we want to garner further support and credibility for the cause then we need to be a bit more strategic/pragmatic and less reactionary. What was presented to us was an opportunity to have a GC voice in a debate on terrestrial TV, it became clear very quickly that it wasn't a "debate" at all and that there was clear bias, but nonetheless Sarah Ditum did manage to raise some decent points and worked hard to try to get those across. Had the heckling not happened, then perhaps there would have been more discussion today about those points rather than penis-gate (maybe not - the fact is we'll never know now). Rather than shouting "penis", and however strong the temptation is to shout "penis", aren't there smarter, more helpful ways to flag the bias and get our messages across? We all know the environment we're working in (so yes the penis-heckling was an absolute gift to MB and the TRAs) - given that environment, is the best course of action to say it's not fair, stamp our feet and shout "penis"; or would it be more helpful to the cause to find other, more measured ways of highlighting last night's bias and elaborating on some of the points that SD (and GG) weren't able to finish/raise, without gifting the TRAs a talk-piece to completely distract from those important issues?

Andi Dier heckled Rose McGowan while she was talking about her sexual assault with completely irrelevant trans centric bullshit and this was held up as justified (until most people found out about Andi's predatory actions) and Rose was monstered for her reaction.

You will never win with these people. The radical feminist women were invited, primed, and set up by C4.

Really if someone yelling 'penis' is now extreme trauma and assault the issue is less the hecklers than some urgent basic resilience training and careers advice for the person who stuffs themselves into the public eye in contraversial situations on a daily basis. It makes a complete nonsense of the language.

I'm increasingly starting to think 'transphobia' is anything except rapt attention, unconditional agreement with anything spoken with vigorous applause at every word and constant ego stroking. This sacred cow isn't one I'm bowing down to.

Absolutely there are lots of people saying it was "unsafe" for trans people to be exposed to gender critical views of any kind.

inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/genderquake-channel-4-germaine-greer-trans/
Comment by Owl:
(extract)

"The show is framed as a respectful, nuanced discussed about gender, where all points of view get to be heard. Sounds pretty polite and reasonable, right? I thought so too, until I learned that they planned to give platform to transphobic speakers that have said horrendous and damaging things about people like me. This will inevitably spark more negative media coverage that will only continue have had long lasting negative consequences to the mental well-being of trans people, like a recent study shows. The show is a perfect example of how my rights, my identity and my reality is seen as a point of debate. While I’ve been a campaigner for over 10 years, I have never experienced as much hostile media coverage of trans issues as in the UK. For the past 2 years that I’ve been living in there, I have been in constant shock by the way the media treats trans people and the amount of misinformation being put out there by allegedly respected platforms.... continues"

I'm increasingly starting to think 'transphobia' is anything except rapt attention, unconditional agreement with anything spoken with vigorous applause at every word and constant ego stroking. This sacred cow isn't one I'm bowing down to.

There is a reason you are starting to think this.

You can not win.

And in a set up where things are against you, behaving impeccably does need to be thought about, as otherwise you risk looking like the thing you are accused of being.

Its sucks but its the reality of the situation. There is a need to be pragmatic about it for this reason unfortunately, especially since it then means actions by TRAs can be minimised or justified.

After all this, I am so full of anxiety about the "What Makes A Woman" documentary as I just fear it will be Munroe deciding how it all comes down to personality and looks rather than biology - especially as they mention they will be having their brain scanned - and that women must conform to the patriarchal construct of a woman. I cant see those being gender critical on that documentary will be portrayed in a good light, no doubt Munroe will be seen "crying" after she leaves.

I didn't hear anyone shout 'penis'. I saw a woman laughing and saying 'pen' over someone's shoulder after the TAs on the panel accused women in the audience of shouting penis. Until a feminist who was there confirms that there was shouting of 'penis' before those accusations rather than as a response to them, I'm not inclined to trust the accusations of TAs who were lying through their teeth on the programme. Munroe claimed they weren't male, Ash called a woman a weirdo, why should I trust their interpretation of events?

Horrendous and damaging things like

Hang on a minute, changing sex is not possible.

There are other ways to look at this

Er, women and girls are human too? Is it really ok for legislation to be created that erases them on the grounds that you're more important than they are?

The bottom line is and always has been: this ONLY WORKS if no one is allowed to discuss it, share information and alternative view points. So frame it as hate and violence quick and make them shut up before people get a chance to hear anything that messes with the agenda.

Just finished watching it. I didn't really hear the hecklers. But I don't blame them, at all. I was heckling myself. Deafeningly.

It was interesting to me the difference between Jenner and Bergdorf.

Jenner didn't demonstrate the same level of insecurity and defensiveness as MB. I imagine their life as a sportsperson and a multimillionaire has made them quite confident, a little more pragmatic, in a 'they've been round the block a few times' kind of way.

But yes, boring as shit and trying to come up with some profound sound bite about respect and love.

The TRAs have been very vocal in not allowing Jenner to be considered representative. Unsurprisingly.

Bergdorf is a different kettle of fish. Arrogant but without the inner complacency of the lifetime of success that Jenner has.

Desperately not wanting to betray themselves, trying to get hecklers evicted, trying to say their existence should not be debated, and invoking all the other transactivists who refused to go on the programme because of transphobia.

The frantic need to shut down debate was written all over them.

Their arguments are tired, inaccurate and have been refuted, evidentially, hundreds of times.

And I agree it was a horribly biased shit show of a debate, up to and including Cathy Newman's cringing, star struck simpering around Jenner.

But. They forget. All the women who went on there, were invited as 'key' audience members, have access to social media, have relationships with journalists, are mumsnetters, with potential audience of 12 million women.

Caitlyn Jenner and Monroe Bergdorf were poor choices. Caitlyn is not respected, and Bergdorf has been fired from their last two posts with their comments splashed across social media.

So even given their demonstrably unfair amount of airtime, they still come across unfavourably.

I don't think this is going to convince people of their argument, for one single second.

Really if someone yelling 'penis' is now extreme trauma and assault

I'm not saying that at all, what I'm talking about is the perception and how that inevitably will be - is being - seized upon and manipulated by the TRAs to discredit the GCs. Why gift them that? I think we should be focussing on what's helpful to the cause.

I don't know what it will take, but the "most oppressed" trump card is fantastically effective and pulls most of the media into line without a murmur. Cathy Newman et al are very keen to be seen embracing this.

At the moment nothing seems to be able to cut through it. Given time I suppose examples showing the oppression is actually not quite how it is being presented and research being carried out into violence directed at the trans community and rates of suicide could help to create some balance.

The debate here surrounding whether to use heckling etc or not does mildly remind me of the two different stances between the Suffragettes and the Suffragists.

At the moment nothing seems to be able to cut through it. Given time I suppose examples showing the oppression is actually not quite how it is being presented and research being carried out into violence directed at the trans community and rates of suicide could help to create some balance.

It feels like we're being socially engineered by the media so this cannot be heard. I can't believe Bergdorf got away with saying average life expectancy is 35.

99% of the blokes watching that show last night - if any of them even bothered - were pissing themselves laughing at the penis heckle. Because, you know, the penis does not disguise itself well and the penis heckle was accurate.

Twitter is not a window into real life. It is the Achilles heel of the extreme transactivists that they think winning a Twitter battle means they've also won in it in the real world.

One in five women have been sexually abused as children. The same number have experienced sexual assault or attempted sexual assault as adults. Male (including transwomen) sex offenders outnumber women sex offenders by 50 to one..... Not sure they can really play the "most oppressed" trump card completely with stats like that...

Daily mail take on the debate The comments are not as bad as I thought they might be.

Twitter is not a window into real life. It is the Achilles heel of the extreme transactivists that they think winning a Twitter battle means they've also won in it in the real world.

Yes, fair point Lang, my posts on this thread today have been very much coloured by the field day the TRAs and their sympathisers are having with it on Twitter today. I do forget sometimes there is a whole other world out there :/

Lots of women have been behaving impeccably yet critical on this topic for a long time. Some bend over backwards to be nice and only so slightly critical - Helen Lewis springs to mind and the TAs call her a terf all the time.

Being nice hasn't worked. Noone outside of this battle was paying attention to women talking about this at all until they started asserting en masse their right to speak frankly at meetings and with humour though Man Friday etc. The police chasing Posie Parker for speaking on twitter has raised a lot of interest from people previously unaware of these issues.

Well behaved women seldom make history. They make it on to mainstream media just as little. The people whining on twitter already have their minds made up. The press covering this as mean feminists attacking vulnerable trans ladies are preaching to their choir.

Twitter is not a window into real life. It is the Achilles heel of the extreme transactivists that they think winning a Twitter battle means they've also won in it in the real world.

This. Women reacting this way would get laughed at and the inevitable comments about smelling salts and pearl clutching. It won't convince anyone who isn't already on side.

Sorry don't know if it's been mentioned the stastic for sexual assault for women is one in five (as above) the estimate for disabled women (it's hard to get accurate stastics for disabled women for a variety of reasons) are twice that at 1 in 2.5 women. So nearly half. Which is shocking. Thats why care worker roles are exempt from the equalties gender act (think that's what its called).

I was always taught that If someone can't debate their point, maybe it's because they don't have one.
Trans activists argument seems to consist entirely of "because I said so".

Thinking about it this behaviour is part of trans identifying males play acting as poor weak lady victims, because that is how TAs and MRAs think women behave. It's part of the fetish for autogynephiles, and it's part of the anger of incels and abusive ex husbands. We need to see it for what it is because the more of us that openly take the piss out of it, the more your average everyday man and woman will relate to us, and the sillier they look.