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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Genderquake

567 replies

Terfragette69 · 06/05/2018 20:59

Are we ready for this?? I'm already angry....... Just from the trailer.

OP posts:
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7
OrchidInTheSun · 11/05/2018 09:09

Whittle's twitter post

I don't think C4 would be the place to hold a respectful, open debate - they've demonstrated that they're incapable outside of the news slot. BBC2 would be a better bet. But then the BBC have totally drunk the kool aid.

I don't know which channel would host tbh

Genderquake
R0wantrees · 11/05/2018 09:13

It speak volumes there were no actual men on the panel . It's not a men's issue is it?

Brendan O’Neill gave a speech at Oxford this week, as recorded on Spiked:
(extract)
"Say the unsayable
This week, to the horror of student campaigners, Brendan O’Neill was invited to speak at a dinner at The Queen’s College, Oxford. This is what he said.

It is my sincerely held belief that a man can never become a woman. That no matter how many hormones he takes, or operations he has, or fabulous outfits he buys, a person who was born male can never become female.
I accept a man can be a trans-woman. I accept the right of every man to claim to be a woman. And to change his name to a woman’s name, if he likes. And these trans-women should of course enjoy the same rights as every other citizen: the right to vote, the right to free speech, the right to work. But to my mind, they are not women. The slogan ‘Trans women are women’ is a lie. This is my sincerely held belief.
Recently, however, this belief has become virtually unutterable in respectable society. It has become tantamount to heresy. To deny that men can become women is the modern equivalent of denying that a wafer of bread and a cup of wine became the flesh and blood of Christ during Mass. If you deny the magic of transgenderism, you will be subjected to a similar wild-eyed fury that was once visited upon those who denied the magic of transubstantiation...

...Witness how feminists who question the magic of transgenderism are hounded off campuses and blacklisted by the NUS. These feminists are referred to by the most awful names online: bitches, cunts, whores. Or TERFs. TERF, meaning trans-exclusionary radical feminist, has become the most common insult hurled at these blasphemous women. TERFs are blacklisted by student officials, most recently at Bristol University. They have been physically prevented by trans activists from holding public meetings. They have been violently attacked: last year trans activists assaulted a 60-year-old grandmother, or TERF, to give her the dehumanising name they gave her as they punched her in the face...." continues here
www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/a-manifesto-for-heresy/21379#.WvTEfIgvw2z

Current discussion about this speech & : www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3245540-The-slogan-Trans-women-are-women-is-a-lie-This-is-my-sincerely-held-belief

R0wantrees · 11/05/2018 09:41

It's not a men's issue is it?

Mike Wendling an assistant editor at BBC Trending (team devoted to exploring the politics of global social media) interviewed on Woman's Hour:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3233455-R4-Womans-Hour-the-manosphere-Incel-social-media-and-misogyny

Gary Younge The Guardian
(extract)
"After the Toronto attack, there should be a debate about toxic masculinity, and the issues of identity and rage that turn so many men towards violence... continues
...They think feminism will destroy them. But in fact it is their greatest chance of liberation, since the less women are forced to conform to preconceived notions of femininity, the more space there is within masculinity for them to be themselves."
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3232989-Gary-younger-Toronto-article

Tom Daley:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3230370-Tom-Daley-in-The-Times-trans-women-athletes-have-to-have-testosterone-levels-which-are-often-lower-than-natural-female-athletes-so-its-hard-to-compete

Ben Shapiro:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3231439-Now-Biological-Women-Will-Never-Win-a-Marathon-Ever

R0wantrees · 11/05/2018 09:49

It's not a men's issue is it?
James Kirkup in The Spectator
(extract)
Stephen Doughty MP, "meanwhile, describes as “extreme” and “hate material” an article which observes that some people lobbying for changes in the name of transgender people are advocating things that might not be in the best interests of children. I have never met Doughty but have generally heard good things about him from colleagues: bright, committed, thoughtful and so on. So I must assume that he was having an off day when the committee met last week. It happens to us all, after all.

Surely a bright, thoughtful chap like him didn’t mean to imply that it was his job as Member of Parliament to tell newspapers what they can and cannot write? Surely he had no intention of acting as if it is in any way appropriate for a politician to decide what is and is not acceptable for journalists to say, and how they say it? And I can only hope that it was by a simple accident that he singled out by name a female journalist and suggested that her employers stop her saying the things that she thinks – because Doughty happens not to like her saying those things?"
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/why-are-some-mps-trying-to-shut-down-the-transgender-debate/

PermissionToSpeakSir · 11/05/2018 11:21

I don't think C4 would be the place to hold a respectful, open debate - they've demonstrated that they're incapable outside of the news slot. BBC2 would be a better bet. But then the BBC have totally drunk the kool aid.

I don't know which channel would host tbh

Maybe they could bring in a better production company?

Pratchet · 11/05/2018 11:30

The BBC may have drunk the kool aid but it would never have broadcast this debate. For a start, it wouldn't dare. It wants this story to go somewhere far away for a very long time. Secondly, it would have tried to look fair. It would have had someone like Victoria Derbyshire who seems to be pretty pro trans but at least with a bit more of a clue. And a lot more of a clue about balance. The problem is that C4 doesn't care about balance and never has, so Cathy Newman isn't used to it.

Pratchet · 11/05/2018 11:32

Victoria Derbyshire is really bright I think. Shame about the soft focus trans kids stuff. Waste of her intelligence.

R0wantrees · 11/05/2018 11:45

I don't think the presentation of such complex matters should start with 'a debate'. People need to be able to speak without interruption / be interviewed responsibly first and then debate may become possible.

Pratchet · 11/05/2018 12:36

I think you're right

PermissionToSpeakSir · 11/05/2018 13:09

A format like Question Time would work - with audience members able to send questions in advance.

It wouldn't cover everything but it would be start. Also, make sure the people on the platform are not less informed than the invited audience. It was tedious having to listen to all those boring speakers. Ditum was the only one I thought was really saying something. Even Greer was waffling a lot of shite - but I did like it when she got all vulgar and said "a man without a cock" in that blunt Aussie manner. Grin

MrGHardy · 11/05/2018 19:41

Ben Shapiro:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3231439-Now-Biological-Women-Will-Never-Win-a-Marathon-Ever

When a guy like Ben Shapiro essentially speaks in favor of women...if that isn't evidence for the lunacy of the trans agenda.

OrchidInTheSun · 11/05/2018 20:05

Olivia's blog (Olivia is the 'heckler' who has been suspended from the Green Party) : perspicats.wordpress.com/2018/05/11/the-genderquake-debate-fiasco-and-the-mccarthyism-that-followed/

Sunkisses · 12/05/2018 05:19

Olivia's blog is absolutely brilliant. How badly have the Green Party behaved?! They told the media before her!

Magpiesarehuge · 12/05/2018 08:34

Olivia’s blog was a very good read and completely reminds me (and sometimes i pause and wonder if i’m sure I’m right) why i about turned and became cautious and gender critical. I watched the debate and couldn’t hear the shout outs but did think at the time they were a bit childish and damaged the image of calm rationale that i imagine the radfems wanted to portray - i can understand now how frustrating it must have been sitting there during the debate as i was quite frustrated just sitting watching at home. I think my opinion of Cathy Newman has went down, id love to hear her talk candidly on her views and the criticisms of how she handled the debate.

R0wantrees · 12/05/2018 10:24

I'd love to hear her talk candidly on her views and the criticisms of how she handled the debate

It would be interesting to understand better what was going on prior to the debate. Given the open letter (in op) from many prominent in the transgender community was only published during the afternoon, I think it likely that there were a number of negotiations etc.

Ereshkigal · 12/05/2018 10:26

It would be interesting to understand better what was going on prior to the debate. Given the open letter (in op) from many prominent in the transgender community was only published during the afternoon, I think it likely that there were a number of negotiations etc.

Oh, good point! Yes.

JoanSummers · 12/05/2018 11:12

From.Olivia's blog:
This was totally incongruent with the statement issued by the LGBTIQA+ Greens who have a longstanding reputation for bullying lesbians and older women out of their group.

LGBTQ Greens list of their 'people':
lgbtiqa.greenparty.org.uk/people/

I know of Challenor but none of the others, can anyone expand on how this group have been hostile to lesbians?

I'm also aware of Stella Gardiner (GreenStella/Seastar/AuntyStella) who is a sort of weepy Green equivalent of the LDs Sarah Brown. Who is setting the green agenda on this, is Challenor the main pusher?

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