Genderquake

[Terfragette69]

Are we ready for this?? I'm already angry....... Just from the trailer.

marthaartha just to pick up on a few points you made.
Klinefelters being xxy means they have sexual characteristics of both sexes and I thought most developed breasts unless treated with hormones during puberty. I always thought nowadays they allowed them to decide which gender they preferred and used hormones just to help. so as she said her body transitioned on its own, that fits in with what I already understood about klinefelters.

The lesbian is entitled to fancy whoever she likes and I thought we were moving away from strict categories. The 'woman' she seems attracted to does look quite feminine so stands to reason she may fancy her. Doesn't mean all lesbians have to fancy transwomen obviously. I thought she came across quite genuine.

I agree with others that the one I felt sorry for was Saffron. She just needs to accept who she is and stop worrying about labels.
Interesting program though despite the silly scene with the girls having a bath together. Seriously - who does that?!

Maybe next..

There was just something in the way some of it came across.

But I can't help but wonder if there will be that underlying question at some point in the future.....

I also wondered if being in a house where you aren't different or special in some way is really a safe haven or whether they will kinda enter some contest where they constantly try and out do eachother somehow

whathavei yes thats true that klinefelters can cause female type characteristics but i feel the show should have explained it better, because many people think klinefelters means half male half female when it doesnt. They are still male. Brooke came across well on the show so far.

The lesbian is not a lesbian but a bisexual. It makes no sense to say labels are not important when she chooses to identify as a female then becomes sexually atracted to a male. That means shes not a lesbian and it can be damaging to lesbians to be portayed as womwn who can be swayed by feminised men.

The bitchyness in there is so horrid.

Somebody up thread said there were no TRA types/not political.

I did notice in the credits that Jake Graf had a mention, given he is a transmen and a patron of Mermaids, I imagine the people selected were carefully filtered.

People with Kleinfelter syndrome are Male, genetically. You can have several X chromosomes (XXY, XXXY etc) but if you have a Y you’re Male.

I caught most of it, the 2 TW came across incredibly bitchy, particularly when discussing Romario at the beach, and managed to make it all about them and how hurt they were and not being told.

I agree with those who said they seemed to be putting on a hyper femininity act.

I felt very sad for Saffron, some serious self esteem issues there.

Do you think Romero was testing whether or not he could attract a straight 'normal' woman? Not in a creepy predatory way but in a attempt to validate his transness as it were?

I really felt this to be the case. I read this as Romario believing his "rights" to validation trumped Filomena's "rights" to make an informed choice.

BerkInBag

Yes definitely. He was all about his rights to privacy but obviously not considering the rights of the other person. Now I can understand it will be a difficult issue to be discussed but one that must take place for the sake of fairness and ethics. Fillomena looked quite upset, it is not okay to deceive and lie to another person.

@GaspingShark "
They did say they wouldn't be putting themselves through all this if it they didn't have to. It was almost as though they thought they were more qualified to comment upon their psyche than you are"

As someone with an eating disorder brought on by OCD and someone has experienced anxiety 'attacks' etc I don't generally assume everything people experience or believe about themselves is necessarily true. We are not always our own best friends, only doing for ourselves what is good and authentic for ourselves.

I really do not believe women need to bind their breasts to be themselves. You are totally entitled to disagree.

@Amalfimamma it was on all four on catch up last night.

From The Independent;

"Transgender campaigners and organisations have released an open letter to Channel 4 criticising Genderquake, a season of programmes touted as an exploration of the gender debate, as "counterproductive".

Signees are particularly concerned about Genderquake: The Debate, a studio discussion hosted by Cathy Newman that promises to look at what gender means in 2018. It will discuss topics including: 'what defines our gender identity', 'how that affects our rights', 'should it be easier to change gender' and 'does gender matter'.

The letter, published by indy100 in full below, argues that the debate will give legitimacy to transphobia, prejudice and the notion that trans identities are up for discussion. This concern is presumably stoked by the presence of Australian-born academic and writer Germaine Greer on the panel, who has previously said transgender women "can't be women". continues with copy of letter:
www.indy100.com/article/genderquake-the-debate-transphobia-channel-4-open-letter-campaigners-germaine-greer-8341481

current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3243464-Channel-4s-Genderquake-Debate-is-heavily-criticised-boycotted-by-prominent-transgender-activists-allies

"Message deleted by MNHQ."

Seriously? What on earth did I post that was against guidelines? I didn't misgender anyone, I used they/them for everyone - gay, straight or trans - deliberately so that I didn't misgender anyone

Please can MNHQ email me, or state here, what was against guidelines in my deleted post.

Not being goady, I genuinely want to know so I don't do it again

Post it again.

Current guidelines seem to be that if anyone on Twitter complains, the post is deleted.

Poor things, they must be shit scared of us. Imagine spending your days policing what mums say online.

Post it again.

I would if I could remember what it was I posted - was quite a long one.

The only thing I can think of was I said I didn't feel one of the participants 'passed' due to having rather masculine features.

@Italiangreyhound

Even with my VPN I can't get 4bcatchup. I can get ch4 in streaming but that's about it. I'll see if it's in later on in the week

Okay - backspaced enough times to find my post

Here we go:

_

Just watched this on Catch Up and was surprised that I (kind of) enjoyed it, albeit in what felt like a very voyeuristic way.

(I'm just going to use they/them for everyone btw)

Brooke is lovely, very feminine in looks and voice. I was shocked when they said they had a penis.

Campbell is very attractive; I'd say they pass apart from the voice. I think their relationship with Howie is purely for validation - 'oooh a lesbian fancies me' kind of thing.

Howie annoys me, they seem rather predatory. Makes me wonder how hard they pursued the straight women they spoke about.

Charlie (think I've got the right name) doesn't come close to passing imo; very masculine face. Seems quite bitchy.

Marcus - I went from liking to actively disliking them. It's one thing confronting Romario but another 'outing' them to Filomena. In some ways I can understand why but I felt it was coming from a place of gossip/nastiness rather than concern for Filomena.

Filomena. Meh, nothing stands out about them.

Tom (?). Nice looking bloke. Erm that's it really.

Romario I think passes as a man; I'd probably fancy them if they chatted me up. I don't like the way they started something with Filomena without telling them they were trans though, that was wrong imo.

Saffron; seems a funny and pleasant person. Clearly female despite the Peaky Blinders style haircut.

The other bloke. No idea of their name. Can't really remember anything about them.

Someone called Dan I think? Black bobbed hair. Pretty. Hardly featured.

Can't remember if there was anyone else.

martha yes I agree that they could have explained it better on the show. Although they are male due to the Y chromosomes, I thought it was one of the intersex conditions which genuinely blurs the distinction between the sexes. Plus they have reduced fertility. What I'm trying to say is that it should be treated differently to transwomen that are XY and often need hormone treated regardless of which gender they choose to identify with. (Although, many individuals are unaware they have the condition so appears to have varying degrees of effect on the individual). Just clarifying my understanding of the condition especially as I teach about it sometimes!

juzza
I thought you could fall in love with whoever you liked. Hence, the 'lesbian' can like whoever she likes.
Perhaps she will need alter her current label but this is where I don't get the whole need for labels. I was talking about an individual and thought her behaviour came across quite genuine (as genuine as you can get when being filmed!!).

However, I'm heterosexual so not speaking from a lesbian perspective and also need to say that I absolutely disagree with the idea that lesbians 'should fancy transwomen cos they're women argument' .

Im not keen on the 'not needing labels' when it comes to sexuality.

If my daughters decide they are attracted to females, only females, not men with a female gender identity, what does that make them?

Even Stonewall class lesbains as same gender attracted.

Its important we dont erase peoples sexual orientation, and gay children know its absolutely fine to be same sex attracted, not just same gender.

@whathaveiforgottentoday

You say you're a heterosexual so I assume that as a heterosexual, like me you'd never fancied a male presenting woman.

Lesbians are homosexual females. So. It stands to reason that they'd never fancy a man. Otherwise they'd be bisexual....

"Are we ready for this?? I'm already angry....... Just from the trailer."

I have never seen such moronic tweets as under the #Genderquake hashtag. They believe woman is a gender and gender is a feeling. And anyone who disagrees is an evil transphobe/fascist/bigot/whatever.

Wow. Thought provoking stuff. I'd say I'm gender critical and a radcial feminist but its made me think more. Of course, its heavily edited and no doubt some prompting and provoking of conflict has gone on. Its made it clear to me there is massive diversity amongst the 'trans' (wider?) community. The various reactions to the programme show that too ie the complaints from women and some trans activists!

Also I was surprised, perhaps naively, how much of it is about sex(ual activity) and the desperate need to be affirmed and desired. I wish someone would acknowledge how harmful gender and associated stereotypes are to ALL of us.