Hi Mumsnet, if you are asking feminist women to consider whether Mumsnet is for them, please be clear that the space *we* made here is for *all* of us.

[leyat]

So apparently MNHQ is asking women they are suspending for saying things like men are men, to consider whether Mumsnet is for them.

I feel it's important to be clear that we want feminist women to have a home here, we - all the women who engage here - have made this board what it is (I'm relatively new so I am in awe of the women who have been shaping this wonderful space all this time) and we don't want women excluded from this space because they won't lie about biology and acquiesce to misogyny and genderism.

This is meant to be a kind of refuge for us, where we do not have to submit to male authority, where we can let off steam and share without needing to worry about dealing with misogyny, and where we can feel a degree of safety and find sisterhood. I can't think of anything more awful than a woman who comes here to share in this, in this one space we have that's meant to be ours, to then be told she should consider excluding herself because she won't bow to male authority on what a woman is.

So it needs saying, Mumsnet, this is a board for all feminist women, we don't want anyone excluded or made to feel that this space isn't for them too. And please understand many women come here from backgrounds of abuse, we do live in a climate of male violence and misogyny that is currently getting worse, so I hope MNHQ take time to ask themselves how they want to treat women who come here. Mumsnet own the site, but it's the women who use this space who made it the vibrant refuge of sisterhood and resistance that it is, so please don't shit on that or indeed on the women who actually engage on your forum.

it's a shame one topic has dominated a section to the extent that trans issues are now seen as the one and only issue important to feminists.

As leyat says, 'trans ideology and activism is behind an unprecedented attack on our rights and our very reality.'

& I would add

-freedom of speech
-university education
-political influence
-impact on public services eg health/education
-influence of social media etc

as being issues that do not just affect feminists but everyone.

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/why-are-some-mps-trying-to-shut-down-the-transgender-debate/

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sam-gyimah-crackdown-on-students-silencing-free-speech-x28jx85fc

Thank you juzza12 . I thought that was likely to be the case given what other studies have said but I was trying to be fair.

@SinisterBumFacedCat please start some threads - I'd be delighted to discuss other topics, genuinely. So please go ahead, I'd appreciate it.

This is meant to be a kind of refuge for us

But it isn't your private support group. Anyone can post here and discuss any feminist topics that they like. Different people have different definitions of feminism and what it means today. For many it is about equality and empowerment for everyone.

You don't get to tell other people what they can and can't say here. You didn't make this space, Mumsnet did.

Some people seem hell bent on disrespecting that by posting as many discriminatory and oppressive comments as possible. That isn't in the spirit of equality or the legislation that is meant to protect vulnerable groups. Some of the posters on here show little respect for Mumsnet or the opportunity they are trying to provide. Because they are more interested in pushing their own agenda at all costs. Just my opinion.

Different people have different definitions of feminism and what it means today. For many it is about equality and empowerment for everyone.

That's vacuous "all lives matter" nonsense. Those people have different definitions of many things. I wouldn't advise listening to them.

Long time lurked, first time poster.

I've been inspired to actually throw my hat in the ring finally as I've been inspired at the strength being shown here.

Although I've never considered myself a feminist, this new phenomena of opening up women's spaces has caught my attention for a few years now, as I watched it slowly arrive here from America. Just wanted to get my voice heard in this, especially in women's sports.

AAK your post resonated with me.

I also remember the day I stopped reacting and dancing to my ex's tune, stood back and just said 'I see you'.

Every time he started up his shit after that I said it again, it was the beginning of a wonderful end to us.

Lurker here newly joined. Thank you for an excellent post OP.

I don't consider myself a feminist or at least I didn't but I do believe in equality and biology. I find this assault on women and their rights upsetting and frightening.

You may have already seen this article OnTheList, because it's a couple of years old. But it popped up in my newsfeed today, and seemed relevant to your comment.
www.dailyxtra.com/why-is-a-trans-woman-leading-a-mens-rights-group-69998

An interesting article. I actually agree that a lot of people see them as failed men and that so many problems trans have are to do with this strict image of men should be (for want of a better word) masculine. But that is the concept of gender doing harm.

The rest I disagree with.

Interesting article, thanks.

Female privileged and misandry though...I guess it makes a change from 'transmisogynistic' though.

So much crossover between MRAs and TRAs. Someone on here said this a couple of years back and it kind of made everything click into place perfectly for me.

Not saying all trans people are MRAs, before someone misreads me.

SuperMatchGame and the now (I think) closed 'mumsnettransphobia' twitter account have raised the issue of 'respect', highlighting what they believe is disrespect for people who are transgender within these boards.

I believe that nuance and respect is much-needed. I also know that this means different things to different people.

I think it is reasonable, appropriate and necessary for us to ask questions about the the lack of respect and at times direct threats shown to women by some TRAs.

some examples (there are many many more) have been collated here:
manfridayuk.org/2018/05/04/manfriday-the-11th-our-very-own-art-exhibition/

When sites such as theterfs.com are apparently worthy of recommendation?

As James Kirkup wrote:
It’s because those women have been – quite successfully and even skilfully – demonised and stigmatised, put beyond the pale of civilised debate as those who question orthodoxy often are. They’ve been given a name, a name that means they’re bad people, people who should not speak and should not be heard. That name is “Terf,” which once meant “Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist” but now appears to stand in its own right as a term of abuse and dismissal alongside the other short, harsh words often used to question the worth and virtue of women.

And that small number of people who direct violence and abuse at “Terfs” are swimming in a larger sea of contempt and dismissal. Their conduct takes place in a social context where hostility to “Terfs” has become not just normal but even amusing, where there is no social cost to talking about and perhaps even inciting violence towards women who hold “unacceptable” views. Simply, some people, including people who would never themselves engage in that sort of violence, are doing things that make violent discourse and even violence look and feel OK. Sadly, they include journalists and politicians, people who parade their support for minority groups but speak about feminist women in terms they would never use about other people.
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/fear-and-loathing-grips-the-gender-debate/

Margaret Atwood's quote seems especially prescient in these times:
“Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.”

@SupermatchGame You seem confused, so I will clear that up: In no way did my post suggest that people cannot post what they like here, in fact the very point of the post was that we should all be able to do this, indeed when you uphold free speech as I am in my post, you are explicitly saying that other people - i.e. everyone - should be able to post what they want to here. The 'refuge' is that we can do this, that we are free to post in this space without having to deal with censorship or misogyny, something that is sorely missing from other online spaces. And yes people who think feminism isn't about centering female liberation from patriarchy are free to come here and discuss that view, and indeed have their analysis tested. I am happy to clear that up for you.

@smartboots and @ladylauraover really glad you posted, I totally share your concerns and they highlight how important it is that we can discuss what is a threat to our rights and our spaces.

Fabulous post. Agreed.

We must keep speaking up. The "first they came for the..." quote has never been more apt.

Does anyone know when governmental decisions around proposed self ID legislation are likely to be made?

Does anyone know when governmental decisions around proposed self ID legislation are likely to be made?

from the letter shared:

"... details will be released in due course"

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3240272-Response-received-from-Minister-via-MP

Hmm. That's disconcertingly vague!

I think theterfs.com was started by Dana Lane Taylor, a male who ids as trans and has tweeted under countless names, but for a long time went by misssudo, and before that went by sixof_caprica. Taylor was totally obsessed with Cathy Brennan. If you google any of Taylor's names you'll probably find a whole bunch of insane stuff, including regular suicide threats, a lactation fetish, and frightening threats of violence.

DLT handed over theterfs.com to Cristan Williams, who runs the transadvocate site and was massively responsible for popularising the term terf (before theterfs.com was made). Cristan is the source of a large amount of the bullshit fright stories around 'terfs', basically making radical feminists out to be some sort of bogeyman who 'literally murdered tens of thousands of trans women' (paraphrasing). Williams' goal was to make the Transadvocate seem legit, a goal that seems to have been achieved, which is a complete travesty seeing as it is full of utter bollocks.

My memory might be a bit off but I don't think so. I don't go to either site ever at all as Williams and Taylor have both boasted of having hacker friends (Taylor fancies themselves a hacker too) and they are both obsessed with hunting and doxxing 'terfs'. They're both pretty fucking scary imo.

I don't know ever how useful this info is, just trying to shed a bit of light on background in case anyone wants to follow it up.

I think it's always worth knowing some of the sources of this stuff, the people who go along with it have no idea of where the bs they follow originated from and it is some pretty scary places.

Cristan is the source of a large amount of the bullshit fright stories around 'terfs', basically making radical feminists out to be some sort of bogeyman who 'literally murdered tens of thousands of trans women' (paraphrasing). Williams' goal was to make the Transadvocate seem legit, a goal that seems to have been achieved, which is a complete travesty seeing as it is full of utter bollocks.

YY that's my understanding too.

I think it's always worth knowing some of the sources of this stuff
I agree.

Apologies, I realise that I didn't make clear that in the recommended slideshow above used at NUS Women's18 theterfs.com was listed as a 'good source'

Oh yes, I assumed that point had been made. They directly quote from it I think.

AAK: That'll be the next thing, TRAs will realize that endo is a thing that exists and claim that they get it too. If you can experience cramps in your nonexistent uterus then why not?

I have already seen a few demanding pap smears, you know, on their non-existent cervix. They insisted the gynae 'couldn't tell' it was a surgically constructed mangina. oh sure they couldn't tell, sure

So medical professionals have to humour them now?

@LaSqrrl AAK: That'll be the next thing, TRAs will realize that endo is a thing that exists and claim that they get it too. If you can experience cramps in your nonexistent uterus then why not?

Hopefully these will post in order....

(1 of 4 sequential posts)

2 of 4