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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

MNHQ Deletion Policy

935 replies

TheUterati · 30/04/2018 17:03

Earlier today the Trans Park Run thread was deleted in its entirety because SOME posts alleging cheating were deemed to be 'not in the spirit' of MN.

We have a thread about that running.

I have just been deleted on the Heather Peto thread for posting this:

"Bless..."

A post intended to be mildly dismissive.

That was deleted for breaking talk guidelines.

Give me a fucking break MNHQ.

"Bless..." gets a deletion!??!?!

TRA really have got you on a short chain, haven't they?

OP posts:
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BarrackerBarmer · 02/05/2018 00:03

Cady - Can I ask you how it is possible to be a transwoman and NOT impinge upon women's rights in some way? Even in a minor way?

For example, I think Miranda Yardley manages this - by not using women's spaces, by not claiming the word woman, by not enforcing his inclusion in women's data, and by arguing that he isn't a woman at all. In fact he acknowledges he is male and argues for the rights of women to be recognised as a biological class - in the knowledge that this excludes him.

But on some level, other transwomen, even 'gender critical' transwomen, all seem to push women's boundaries at least a little in the course of 'living their lives peacefully'. Using changing rooms, or requiring female pronouns, changing sex markers on documents, claiming that woman means something other than sex, at least for them personally.

I respect and listen to several transwomen, and some I consider brave and admire their integrity whilst still disagreeing, but there do seem to be blind spots in their reasoning where their identity as women treads on the toes of actual females is concerned.

And Miranda does seem to be exceptional in this regard.

It doesn't mean I don't respect transwomen. But I do still think this needs to be discussed.

I agree with all the concerns women have about safety and I share them, because they are valid.

But at the absolute root of my fundamental objection to the ideology, is that I want to be fully recognised. I am female, adult - a woman. I want to be recognised as distinct from males, all males. I'm as different from transwomen as I am from any other male.
I'm not a little bit more like these males than those males because we both use the word woman to name ourselves. I don't want to share a category with transwomen that isn't simply 'people'. It isn't true that I have similarities with transwomen that I don't also have with all other men too. Men and women are all people. That is our commonality. But there is no "men in this category/women & transwomen in this one". I object to this false duality that arises by some males declaring: females are women, we are transwomen, males are different from us. It lumps me into a category with some males, the ones who use 'woman' in any way, and distinguishes me - apparently - from other males, and my protests that this is against my wishes and against reality go unheard.

And any efforts to take the word which distinguishes me and to 'adapt' it with prefixes to blur boundaries between my sex, and the identity of anyone male, fundamentally takes away my right to name myself in a way that cannot be claimed by males.
There is only one word for adult human females to name ourselves, and all the rights we have fought for were granted to us as a recognised group of females under that name. Woman is synonymous with female. We need that word to talk about our sex. And yet, when male people claim it for themselves they force a false shared identity with me that doesn't exist, and that denies me the right to that clear refutation: Woman means female, and it isn't something you can transition to.

My right to say, I am sorry, I don't hate you, but I am not like you despite what you believe, this is who I am, this is what matters to me: recognise me, and respect my name as one that exists to describe me and my sex - please use another name for yourselves.

AnitaLovesVictor · 02/05/2018 00:07

Thank you for putting that so well, Barrack. I'm exhausted.

CadyHeron · 02/05/2018 00:28

BarrackerBarmer - I completely agree with what you said there,really well put.
Women's spaces absolutely should be protected.
Fully transitioning male to female or female to male though are protected by law and so they should be.
How to make that compatible with pleasing everybody though is anybody's guess.
The .word woman needs to stay too - I'm not a ciswoman, I'm a woman thanks muchly.
Always hated on learning what it meant, but after this thread and the deleted one made me think it's a word to make it easier to explain stuff and make things clear and that shouldn't be the way. Cis shouldn't be needed. I don't want to be shunted to 'cis.
Christ,my arse will get splintered sitting on the goddamn fence at this rate lol Grin

AngryAttackKittens · 02/05/2018 00:40

Maybe realize that a. sometimes you can't please everyone and b. you will never, ever please someone with the kind of personality most prominent TRAs have. Which is why many women have stopped trying.

LaSqrrl · 02/05/2018 00:58

Barracker: And any efforts to take the word which distinguishes me and to 'adapt' it with prefixes to blur boundaries between my sex, and the identity of anyone male, fundamentally takes away my right to name myself in a way that cannot be claimed by males.
There is only one word for adult human females to name ourselves, and all the rights we have fought for were granted to us as a recognised group of females under that name. Woman is synonymous with female. We need that word to talk about our sex. And yet, when male people claim it for themselves they force a false shared identity with me that doesn't exist, and that denies me the right to that clear refutation: Woman means female, and it isn't something you can transition to.

Well said.

And also agree with what Kitten said above
Having successfully erased the meaning of the words man and woman they now move on to the words male and female.

And Rufus: Gender instead of sex

Yes, and once all of those words to describe ourselves have gone, how do we fight for women's rights? There will be no such thing. No such category of humans that have been subjugated. Game over for us. And that is why we continue to resist the takeover.

xxmarksthespot · 02/05/2018 09:12

I'm assuming mumsnet Hq / IWillReportAllTransphobicPosts / THE ACTUAL POLICE will be at my door shortly to confiscate my dictionary Pratchet.

Perhaps those nice chaps from West Yorks Police could do a tour of the country, gather all our dictionaries together and burn them all.

LangCleg · 02/05/2018 10:12

How to make that compatible with pleasing everybody though is anybody's guess.

Rights conflict. Not everybody can have everything they want.

I don't particularly want to throw fully-transitioned transsexuals under the bus, not least because this group includes friends of mine, but I have red lines. And if what you call fully transitioned people want to avoid my bus, Cady, they are going to have to separate themselves from the extreme transactivists, organise, and lobby. I didn't include them under the trans umbrella and getting them out from under it is not my responsibility. I am here to advocate for the interests of women and children.

AnitaLovesVictor · 02/05/2018 10:19

Going back to the title of this thread - MNHQ Deletion Policy. I would like to say that there is considerable fuss on Twitter currently - trying to get a thread discussing paedophilia removed. #TransAge, "Age fluid" and the tactics of the PIE to normalise and legalise paedophilia.

I would like to reiterate what I have just said on that thread. MNHQ - if women on mumsnet cannot talk about this serious child protection issue - then what are you for?

KittyKlaws · 02/05/2018 10:21

But at the absolute root of my fundamental objection to the ideology, is that I want to be fully recognised. I am female, adult - a woman. I want to be recognised as distinct from males, all males. I'm as different from transwomen as I am from any other male.
I'm not a little bit more like these males than those males because we both use the word woman to name ourselves. I don't want to share a category with transwomen that isn't simply 'people'. It isn't true that I have similarities with transwomen that I don't also have with all other men too.

Well said Barracker to me this is the fundamental issue I have with the entire ideology. I see that this position is unassailable for me and seems to be something trans ideology depends on for the most part and therefore, we will always be at an impasse.

AngryAttackKittens · 02/05/2018 10:25

I share far more common characteristics with my DH than I do with any prominent trans activist that I can think of. He's still a man and I'm still a woman.

KittyKlaws · 02/05/2018 10:36

Well, me too AAK (with my OH rather than yours Smile) but I am distinct from him in a number of significant ways too. As people we share similarities and characteristics but we have to acknowledge the differences we have when it comes to speaking about classes and groups, particularly if we need to talk about issues (like FGM, or baby girls being abandoned etc.) - but I am aware you know all this and we come from the same side.

AngryAttackKittens · 02/05/2018 10:38

If DH tried to tell me that he knew as much or even more than I do about female specific experiences guess how well that would go for him.

If I'm not going to take it from someone I love dearly I'm certainly not going to take it from some random on the internet.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 02/05/2018 11:24

fully transitioning peeps need protecting too. Not denying and saying "but no,you're not one of us and never will be" which some have said.
So what do you do? Suppose that's the billion dollar question otherwise there wouldn't be all this

IMO it is deceitful and dishonest to pretend to be the opposite sex in perpetual terror of being found out. It is manipulative, gaslighting and bullying to force other people to play along with your pretence.

It is also transgressive to over step the mark and to use services and facilities for the opposite sex and should be frowned upon and discouraged because you should respect other peoples boundaries.

People who feel uncomfortable being their own sex should seek psychological help first - and if they seek to have medical help too, it should be understood that this is not a green light to be deceptive, dishonest, gaslighting, bullying and transgressive. They should be openly 'trans' and stick to using the services and facilities of their own sex. They shouldn't be given license to be boundary violators because they have a mental disorder. They also shouldn't be given deceptive, dishonest documentation that lies on their behalf. They need to deal with their condition not try to change the world and everyone in it to suit themselves - just like every other person in the world with a psychological disorder.

The kind of protection they are entitled to, is freedom from harm and discrimination as they go about their business (which doesn't involve lies, gaslighting or transgression).

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 02/05/2018 11:58

Barracker totally agree with your post. Insisting by force / the law / deleting your posts that someone else call you a name other than your natal sex is bullying and gaslighting. It's lying, and yes we lie out of politeness all the time but we do it freely. The state insisting we lie is very chilling (as happened in the Maria M court case), there are historical precedents for where this sort of thing happened and they were not good times / places to live. MN insisting that we lie is not in the spirit of free speech. This is what we're debating not whether it's "nice" to use particular pronouns - individuals should be free to decide whether they'll do that or not themselves. This is about being censured / penalised for choosing to stick to the truth.

Also, arguably lying is not the "nice" thing to do. I like what Miranda Yardley says about pronouns here mirandayardley.com/en/contribution-discussion-womens-place-uk-meeting-27-february-2018/
" it’s cruel to lie to people about what they are. People should be accepted for what they are, and you should not base friendship on a lie."

PencilsInSpace · 02/05/2018 17:48

Fuck this shit.

MNHQ Deletion Policy
AngryAttackKittens · 02/05/2018 17:56

So capitulation it is, then?

thebewilderness · 02/05/2018 17:56

There needs to be a happy medium though, and I have no answer to the best way to solve it.

No there does not need to be a happy medium between women having rights to privacy and dignity and women not having rights to privacy and dignity.
Stripping women of some rights presented as a "happy medium" is simply wrong.
The way to solve it is to provide for the sub set of males in male accommodations.

thebewilderness · 02/05/2018 17:57

I think it is just MNHQ saying "show me" the same way we do here.

NotTerfNorCis · 02/05/2018 17:59

Yep. It'll be illustrative to see what incidents of real transphobia get logged. If any.

AngryAttackKittens · 02/05/2018 18:02

At this point I'm wondering if MNHQ is quietly collating our information to pass on to whichever TRA has found themselves a nice cooperative local police force. Apparently an agreement of some sort has been reached with IW (or at least IW thinks so, which admittedly may not mean much).

NotTerfNorCis · 02/05/2018 18:03

Just checked, I'm not sure this is an official Mumsnet account? Its description is:

Countering the denial that transphobia on Mumsnet exists AND pooling reports so Mumsnet can take action more easily.

AngryAttackKittens · 02/05/2018 18:04

I'd say that's a TRA account.

TERFragetteCity · 02/05/2018 18:06

Just checked, I'm not sure this is an official Mumsnet account? Its description is:

It isn't a MN account - it is a TRA account watching over us.

waves

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 02/05/2018 18:07

It's def a TRA account. And IW has RT it

MNHQ Deletion Policy
AngryAttackKittens · 02/05/2018 18:08

The concerning part is that MNHQ seems to have established a friendly, cooperative relationship with the TRA account. IW is referring people to the TRA account so that they can "help" MNHQ.

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