MNHQ Deletion Policy

[TheUterati]

Earlier today the Trans Park Run thread was deleted in its entirety because SOME posts alleging cheating were deemed to be 'not in the spirit' of MN.

We have a thread about that running.

I have just been deleted on the Heather Peto thread for posting this:

"Bless..."

A post intended to be mildly dismissive.

That was deleted for breaking talk guidelines.

Give me a fucking break MNHQ.

"Bless..." gets a deletion!??!?!

TRA really have got you on a short chain, haven't they?

in accordance with the provisions of that certificate

That's the key bit right there

It doesn't mean "has now changed sex", and doesn't mean "can never be referred to as trans ever again" or "can never be barred from single sex spaces"

It means that there are certain protections and rights bestowed upon the holder (like standing for selection on an AWS and recourse if their trans status is shared between people who have no need to know). Not that the profession believes that they have changed sex

The censors have taken over education.

I've been more if a lurker than a poster over the years I've been on MN, but have learnt loads over the years. There are some fantastic, erudite women on these boards.

Red take care, your posts, among many others, are informative and we'll expressed. It would be a shame to lose your voice.

Truscum

We could call it the Reality Party, Mip.

That works. About the only thing in this world that does right now.

not at all bitter honest

Reality First.... the Empiricists Party ... (that's what we need - an end to pomo bs).

The censors have taken over education.

That's the most frightening - the state of our universities now. No platforming of elected politicians by masked men, lecturers being told certain aspects of subjects cannot be taught, people being no-platformed.

I wonder what on earth has got into everybody. We used to debate for hours when I was at Uni (back in the days of yore ) For hours - and there would be arguments, fall-outs, anger - but you know - we were able to talk about stuff. Robust debate.

Most of us here are just seeking women and girls' safety, security, privacy and dignity.

We don't care a damn how men choose to present themselves, so long as they do not try to threaten or silence us, or invade the spaces where we expect privacy and choice.

Is that too much to ask? Really?

I wonder what on earth has got into everybody.

Yes the world has been turned on its head and not in a good way.

Deranged zealots are fighting for ignorance and taking up positions of authority and influence.

You know how in the Asterix comics he was dropped in a vat of the magic potion as a child? Like that but with acid.

(The 60s groovy kind, not the sulphuric kind, before any TRAs get all omg violence.)

I was giving a reason why it's not ok to say some of the things you've said such as "trans women are not women/ female", or "trans women should be treated like men" because it goes against the legal position.

Bloody hell. You can't seriously be suggesting that women aren't allowed to disagree with a law. And "say some things" about it. Out loud.

Women have disagreed with hundreds of laws. And got them changed as a result. Otherwise you wouldn't be allowed to even express your opinions in public (regressive though they are and assuming you're female).

Furthermore, the law openly acknowledges that transwomen are biological males. Hence the exemptions.

Stop telling women they mustn't talk. It's a massive own goal.

Hi all

Just had a look at the deletion of 'bless' and it does look as though we've were a bit heavy handed with that one - apologies for that. It's worth making the point, though, that what the moderator saw in that post was a sneery, goady tone that we've mentioned many, many times on these threads and which we just don't think sits well within the terms of civil debate.

What Justine spoke about in the Times article was freedom of speech, certainly - but she made it very clear that this does not mean a free-for-all. We're offering the space to debate this issue - that means that alternative voices must be able to make themselves heard, and that posts which have an intimidating and contemptuous tone - or which weaponise the free speech that we've said we'll allow in order to attack individuals - won't be allowed to stand.

As we've said previously, we know that it is possible to debate without doing these things, because we've seen hundreds of posts here with express the GC position cogently and passionately, but civilly.

Many of you have said in recent times that you'd appreciate a clearer outline of what is and isn't okay, and we think it probably is time that we did something like this, so that everyone's clear and no-one accidentally steps over the line. We'll have a think about this over the next few days and come back to you. In the meantime, please keep things respectful, especially to our moderation team who have quite a job on their hands keeping this space open.

Thanks KateMumsnet,you're all doing a great job keeping this a space for everyone to talk.

Holy crap @MNHQ what is going on?

Universities are getting ridiculous at the moment. At mine the word gender has replaced sex in all the equality/anti discrimination documents, and the criterion for Women’s Officer is self-ID.

I was also told (by a straight, white male so this rankled a bit!) that I could only ever talk about gender from “an academic point of view”, so had to be very careful I didn’t hurt people’s feelings. Gender critical is not something to admit to at the moment... I’m half tempted to ‘come out’ as agender or non-binary! Then people would listen to me and tell me how brave I am. Well, until I said my preferrred pronouns correspond to my sex.

I'd live to know if they consider "he" to be engendering hate speech or stating fact.

Good luck.

Love*

We're offering the space to debate this issue - that means that alternative voices must be able to make themselves heard

That's why I like it on here. All views can be heard and discussed. You'd be hard pressed to find it elsewhere online.
There's a way of doing it without sneering at anyone with a differing viewpoint thought.
The fact that MN have bolded the word debate - I think that's telling. They want people to debate. Have all viewpoints. Without making anyone feel shut down/belittled for holding different views.
Debate means just that.Being open to hearing others.

We'll have a think about this over the next few days and come back to you.

Please make sure the rules work across MN and don't just give the antifeminists, misogynists and authoritarians license and ammunition to pick on feminists.

If you allow it in AIBU and Chat, let it on here.

At mine the word gender has replaced sex in all the equality/anti discrimination documents,

The Equality Act characteristics are sex and gender reassignment, not "gender".

?

@KateMumsnet

If you're going to add one or two guidelines, can I earnestly suggest you do a quick bit of research about the legal position. So it's at your fingertips.

FairPlay for Women have a 'non lawyers' guide to the law. Which should help.

Otherwise this see-sawing will run and run. The extra line has to be the law. You already have rules for goadiness, personal attacks, etc.

But people are now fully wised up and TRAs or TRA allies will push you to the absolute limit. Your only recourse is a flat 'it's perfectly legal'. Otherwise they will continue to target you - over what we say.

You applying boundaries that are unassailable is your strongest approach. You being able to put your hands up and claim you can do no more because it's the law, will be a line that's irrefutable.

Take emotion out. Take opinion out.

I'd live to know if they consider "he" to be engendering hate speech or stating fact.

I'd think that would go on context, surely?
Fully transitioned male to female, surgery and everything. Spent years living as a woman,
Constantly referring to as "he" - rude. Intolerant. (Not saying they're biological,as obviously not. Are classed as women though.)

Make your mind up on the day of the week - ie female Mon - Thurs, the other days you're male - come ON, how the hell is someone supposed to know whether you're he/she.they/whatever pronoun?! Ridiculous.

Context.

attack individuals - won't be allowed to stand @MNHQ

Does this include individuals who aren't actually on the thread?
The Prime Minister?
Donald Trump?
How about dead people - do we have to be nice about them?
Stalin?
How about people who opt to be public figures in public roles but a bit lower down the food chain?
Are individuals above criticism?
What if they are doing things that can harm us, harm democracy, harm free speech?
Are we allowed to mention it?

Are classed as women though.)

Not by a large number of people. You do - that's up to you.