Trans Park Run Deletion

[TheUterati]

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

FloraFox, this study showed a huge increase in the attempted suicide rate amongst those who experienced rejection or discrimination, e.g. over 50% of those that experienced discrimination at work attempted suicide. I'm not aware of direct data on this exact situation, but I would expect being branded as non-female and non-conforming in a public sphere that you care about would fit under that category.

williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf

This is a highly vulnerable group who deserve more empathy than they seem to be getting in this thread. And I'm not proposing anything, other than that these people not be made to feel unwelcome at social events like ParkRun.

SardineReturns, why would I google whether girls are girls are disengaging from sport for other reasons when that's not at issue? The connection between trans kids and girls disengagement is the issue. Sure, there are a variety of reasons why young girls disengage with sport.

I'm not disputing that girls are disengaging or that something should be done about it. I'm disputing that a very vulnerable group should be made to feel even more isolated and othered simply because you suspect that they will be a problem for young girls engagement. If you have evidence to make it more than a suspicion, great. I've looked, and I haven't found any. Since you're making concrete claims it's reasonable for me to ask what makes you so certain.

Personally my starting point (in lieu of better evidence) is that it will have a very small effect if there is one. Looking at the scale of the problem... last time I read a stat there were less than 200 such kids in London (total, not just M-F trans), that's less than a third of a kid per school. Assuming even 50% of were sporty enough to be at issue before they came out, and 50% of those were still comfortable competing publicly in gym kit after they came out... that's a very small number of kids that you're certain will have a significant effect on a very large number of girls... so certain you seem willing to risk an increase in the suicide rate among one of the most vulnerable groups in society. The stakes are not low.

I assume you're also personally campaigning on issues that are known to cause girls to disengage with sport, right? I'd love to hear about that. What other solutions to girls engagement have you tried before deciding to push for isolating trans kids?

This is a highly vulnerable group who deserve more empathy than they seem to be getting in this thread

Read the limitations section in that study. They are quite honestly laid out.

Thank you cady

onthlist our local park run is along the seafront...would be dead easy to nip into the cafe when you'd had enough maybe your one is similar

most events have a volunteer tail walker whose job it is to come in last

That sounds like my kinda job

Sorry if any remarks I made had anything to do with this.

@richmarr

The limitations set out by the authors note that the questionnaire only asked a single question: “have you ever attempted suicide?” The authors note that using this question alone in surveys without probing for intent to die (as opposed to self harm) can inflate the percentage of affirmative responses by almost 50%.

The survey did not explore mental health status and history which are important risk factors for suicide. The authors note this “significantly limited our ability to identify the pathways to suicidal behavior”.

The authors note that it is unclear how representative the respondents are of the overall US transgender GNC adult population.

The survey lacks information about completed suicide. The authors note the clear demographic differences between suicide attempters and those who die by suicide (e.g. 80% of suicide deaths are by men whereas 75% of suicide attempts are by women) and that we should be especially careful not to extrapolate findings about suicide attempts among transgender adults to imply conclusions about competed suicide in that populations.

The discrimination reported by the respondents was related to housing, work, family and friends, medical care, law enforcement and bullying in school. No-one was asked about being allowed to participate in sport as the opposite sex.

I don’t think there is anyone on these boards who think that it should be okay to discriminate against people on the basis of them being trans identified but that does not mean they need to be treated as a member of the opposite sex for all purposes and regardless of whether they have taken any steps to transition.

So you haven't presented any evidence that there is any harm arising from an inability to participate in sports as a member of the opposite sex.

One thing I noticed on the park run thread was that quite a few posters said that the times and rankings mattered to them or to people they know. These opinions were dismissed, minimised, or called out as being totally wrong by other posters as this is apparently not in the spirit of park run, thus no one should care or has a right to care whether they are bumped down a place or two.

This is dismissing a significant number of women's opinions. Who is it who benefits from this?

How many of those other runs are free to participate in and within walking distance of the inner city? For some people,this may be their only opportunity to race. Not everyone has access to all these so called opportunities.

@Richmarr we cannot all be included in everything all the time. As long as other opportunities are provided, then it's completely ok to exclude some groups for a legitimate aim.

Those of us with disabilities are excluded from many things because we are a minority (but actually massively more in number than trans people and also with high rates of mental illness). We have fought for accessible spaces, not to make all the spaces accessible, but at least one. We accept that since most people don't need accessible spaces, this is a compromise.

Including groups where it may cause a problem for others (and I don't mean just an attitudinal one) causes damage to both groups and further reinforces any divide. I get fed up with seeing people talking about 'inclusion' as though we should all be able to do everything we want to anytime we want to, it's totally unrealistic and will never happen as long as we remain humans who naturally have strengths and weaknesses.

There are extremely good reasons why we have sex segregation for females, and most people understand and accept that, including trans people. As soon as you begin to quash these conversations, you are on a slippery slope. When there is sound reasoning behind limits, limits should remain there. That's what reasonableness is.

Thank you Flora. Great post.

If park run wasn’t timed I wouldn’t bother getting up every Saturday to go to a park run. I enjoy the individual competiveness and trying to beat my personal times. I compare my times to other females in my age group,

@FloraFox

Your argument seems to be, "this study isn't perfect [no study ever is] therefore it's fine to isolate trans kids, but I don't want to isolate trans kids, but really I do. Nobody here is transphobic, we just don't want to treat trans people in the way they want to be treated and don't want them to touch our bathrooms".

Here are some stats for you from a different survey, this time from the UK.

• "51% bullied at school for being trans"
• "9% of trans kids subject to death threats at school"
• "84% of trans kids have self-harmed"
• "2 in 5 have tried to take their own life"
• "Just 41% report that their schools say transphobic bullying is wrong"
• "68% report that school staff only ‘sometimes’ or ‘never’ challenge transphobic language when they hear it"

(www.stonewall.org.uk/sites/default/files/the_school_report_2017.pdf)

This one is from a multi-phase study over 5 years including in-depth interviews, and includes dozens of citations of peer reviewed studies if you like to get nitty gritty with small print:

• "48% of trans young people had made at least one suicide attempt"
• "at higher risk of physical, emotional and sexual violence compared to heterosexuals, with increased risk of suicide ideation and attempts"
• "increased prevalence of abuse, discrimination and victimisation, as well as social isolation in these young people"
• "Two studies found that having greater optimism and hope helped transgender people become more resilient"

- "having a sense of belonging to the general community was protective against suicidality" - "this group is particularly vulnerable to this set of circumstances due to the transphobic reactions they are often exposed to in various contexts, including within the family"

(www.queerfutures.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/RARE_Research_Report_PACE_2015.pdf)

These are the vulnerable children you and others in this thread seem to be actively stirring up sentiment to further isolate.

Just stop.

@Albadross

Yes, there are some cases where accessibility or other kinds of inclusion are difficult. In this case, letting someone run is not difficult. Isolating trans girls from cis girls based on apparent speculation (there's still not one shred of pro-segregation evidence in this thread) is not evidence-based policymaking.

@richmarr

No not really. You were the one demanding evidence from others but it turns out you don't actually have any evidence to back up your assertions.

Before I read these reports, based on your description of them, am I right in thinking they do not address the impact of not participating in sports in the category of the other sex as an impact on suicide rates? Given this was the basis of your earlier posts, what is the significance of these reports on your earlier claims?

Don't forget, you are the one calling for evidence. I'm just asking you for your evidence.

So if you are now not talking about suicide rates, can you elucidate your actual point about the harm that might be caused by trans identified males not being able to participate in sport as women? Can you also please expand on why you are bringing in "vulnerable children" when the discussion has been about trans identified adult males in women's sport?

And further, what do you mean by "Just stop"? Are you suggesting that we don't ask you further questions about your highly questionable call for evidence because it turns out your seemingly reasonable call for evidence can't be backed up by evidence that supports your own arguments?

Isolating trans girls from cis girls based on apparent speculation (there's still not one shred of pro-segregation evidence in this thread) is not evidence-based policymaking

So you disagree with sex segregation all together then I take it? Everything should be unisex?

No one is suggesting that trans women shouldn’t be allowed to take part in Parkrun

The debate is about how they are classified in the results

No one is suggesting that trans women shouldn’t be allowed to take part in Parkrun

The debate is about how they are classified in the results

Yes. ^^This.

Great posts Flora and Susan. I remember the "this girl can" campaign, evidently established in order to encourage females to surmount the barriers they face accessing sport. Those barriers have been described upthread. They are not fictional.

'Isolating transgirls from cis girls' oh honestly 🙄 Nul points

@richmarr most people have endlessly said that we don't want to stop people taking part in things, it's the categorisation we object to.

What would constitute 'pro-segregation evidence' in this case? Remember we're JUST talking about the rankings, not the actual race.

You can’t categorise trans women differently as they want to be seen as women and not men or “other”. That is what the whole trans debate is about. They want to be recognised as women. If a trans women has a gender certificate then the law protects their right to be recognised as a woman. The issue is the self identification. Anyone without a gender certificate can identify as the gender they chose.

I think I understand why trans women want to be recognised as women. And I believe they have very good reasons to want this and to ask for it. Nevertheless I have questions about whether that's always appropriate. Sometimes people want things that have an impact on other people. I think those situations need to be carefully negotiated: it's not enough for one person to say, "I want x, so that's the end of the discussion."

I feel that there's a massive cultural shift going on at the moment, and I want to include trans women wherever possible, but I'd like plenty of acknowledgement that there are some details that need to be discussed. When anyone (trans or otherwise) says, "But I want..." I hear in my head, "You can't always get what you wa-ant" - and I don't even like the Stones that much.

Sometimes people want things that have an impact on other people. I think those situations need to be carefully negotiated: it's not enough for one person to say, "I want x, so that's the end of the discussion."

Exactly.

So if the top x places in the women's rankings are all transwomen, will that be ok from their point of view? Is it the name that is important, or comparing to "other" women?

I mean, if tw want to be in with women then they want women, usually, not tw. We see this with dating.

@RatRolyPoly - thanks for writing this, nails it.