Trans Park Run Deletion

[TheUterati]

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

We all know it's an honour system and the least an MTF trans participant could do would be to mark their time as assisted so that women are able to properly compare themselves against other women.

It's bad sporting behaviour. It's unfair and discouraging to competitive women. It gives a false picture of attainment level to all participating women. In the round, it's just not on. Some might see it as the typical entitled attitude not usually associated with women.

Agree 100%

There are a huge number of challenges and injustices facing young girls, but they don't have an attempted suicide rate of 40%, so this is not an area where I personally am comfortable coming to hasty judgements.

From actual doctors records (rather than self-selecting surveys):
www.nhs.uk/news/mental-health/worrying-rise-reports-self-harm-among-teenage-girls-uk/

I assume those figures would also include trans people as they are total figures for young people however "About three-quarters of the young people who self-harmed were girls"

Clearly not enough young girls are hurting themselves to make their concerns worth worrying about!

So feminist, so in keeping with the spirit of the board.

But you think it's ok to "discriminate" when it's a competition?

It's a completely different issue when it's a competition. Parkrun. Is. Not. A. Competition. People wanting it to be so doesn't make it automatically so. It just spoils it for everyone else, whether you're one of those saying "they can't run, it's not fair as they're bigger/faster/slimmer/more well trained/etc than me" or one of those sniggering at those running slower than the rest.
Everyone can do it.
In a competition, you should do it according to biology. As unfair advantage. This isn't a competition though.
Nobody has an advantage over others. The skinny, fast runners who leave fatty unfit me in the dust every week have an advantage over me.
Should they have to have their own category as they've got "an advantage" over me? Being fit and everything? No. As it's for everyone.

So taking self ID out of the equation, you are saying that fully transitioned males to females are still male?
Can you not see that that is kind of the definition of transphobic?

You do know that humans can't actually change sex, don't you?

Should they have to have their own category as they've got "an advantage" over me? Being fit and everything?

If they did have a fat category, it wouldn't be very sporting for 'skinny, fast' runners to put themselves in that category would it?

Thing is, they do have male and female categories so the right thing to do is put yourself in the correct category.

These threads have actually made me fairly interested in park run. There have been a few near me that I have ignored, but I am a bit tempted now. I did always assume it was like a race, and as such knew it was pointless for me. But if you can even walk it (probably whilst gulping morphine mind! As I will as usual be in a lot of pain) I might give it a go next time. My physio says I need to try and exercise more, though she knows it puts me in even more pain

There are a huge number of challenges and injustices facing young girls, but they don't have an attempted suicide rate of 40%, so this is not an area where I personally am comfortable coming to hasty judgements.

Neither do trans people, would be interested in the evidence

You know sauce for the goose and all that

Onthelist you really should, you'll be made to feel welcome. You most definitely can walk it, in fact a fair few do. It's not a race.Of course there's a lot who do race, but there's also a lot who jog or walk round at their own pace and just treat it as a form of exercise.

Do it OnTheList, everyone is really friendly and encouraging however fast or slow you are. It really is about getting out there and doing it.

making them feel excluded from an inclusionary, for everyone event, kind of is discriminating against them though

I thought everyone was welcome at park runs

I thought everyone was welcome at park runs

They are!! People reading these threads would think otherwise though.
That's the whole point. Everyone's welcome,regardless of ability or sex.

Sometimes when people post i really just want to yell

Fuck off you stupid cunt

Thats wrong isnt it

Thats not directed at you at all cady i dont agree with everything youve said but youve been very measured and engaged

Oh Christ thats a bad crosspost

As i said cady not aimed at you at all

Making them feel excluded from an inclusionary, for everyone event, kind of is discriminating against them though.

How is it discrimination to call a man a man?

Oh Christ thats a bad crosspost

As i said cady not aimed at you at all

That's alright then,will let you off
thanks for the wine and flowers, my fave lol

While Parkrun is fun and encourages everyone to run, it's a total lie to say it's not competitive. They publish weekly results, leader boards and age categories. If it was 'just for fun', why bother with all that?

If they did have a fat category, it wouldn't be very sporting for 'skinny, fast' runners to put themselves in that category would it?

Exactly.

Would I HAVE to finish it? I know they cannot force me to, but would I be made to feel really shit if I couldn't? My illness is kind of unpredictable and I can go from niggly pain to full on agony attacks within seconds and sometimes end up in A+E for IV morphine rather than my usual oramorph

I think I might try and persuade DH to do it. And maybe the kdis too. They are very young, but if you can just walk it then it should be fine.

At least something good has came out of these threads for me, anyway

Though I do agree, if its not meant to be competitive, why publish times and rankings. And why ask for peoples sex (or 'gender') if it doesn't matter. Same with ages. Seems a bit odd really, if its meant to be a fun thing and you only compete against yourself.

If times and “leader boards” are published broken down by sex then it’s competitive to some extent and unfair for transwomen to compete in the women category.

I would also have concerns about self identifying transwomen participating in single sex womens sports/leisure activities.

Dislike it when MN take down whole threads rather than deleting posts.

It's like posting exam results, you can say it's not a competition all you want but there's no reason to put the rankings out there unless the idea is for people to look at them and compare their results to those of others.

Onthelist I really can't see anyone making you feel shit at all if you couldn't finish it.
It's always been really encouraging and friendly when I've been.
I'm one of the slower ones who takes ages to get round, and the tail runners/walkers are so encouraging and nice.
They'll encourage you, or chat to you, (or leave you alone if you prefer that)

*AngryAttackKittens

The willingness to handwave away concerns about competitiveness and fairness that surrounds this debate indicates a complete contempt for women's sport. If it was seen the same way men's sport is nobody would be arguing the need to define clear boundaries and make sure fair competition is possible.*

^ This x1000

Would I HAVE to finish it? I know they cannot force me to, but would I be made to feel really shit if I couldn't?

Absolutely not! Everyone would be happy to see you out there having a go.

I agree that parkrun is not a 'competition' as such, and that's one of the things I love about it. I have my own personal goal, and I challenge myself every time I run, but I don't particularly notice or care who's in front of me or behind. When I'm volunteering I applaud and encourage all runners from the fastest to the slowest, as do all the the other volunteers, and there's plenty of encouragement amongst runners out on the course.

But the parkrun website publishes all manner of data on fastest times, first finishers, age category records, top performances, an age graded 'league', etc. Why would they do that if people don't care where they finish compared to others? And then there's the the post-run emails... All I really want to know is my time and whether or not it's a PB. But the email includes details on where I finished overall, where I finished out of the female participants, and where I finished in my 'age category', which is also divided by sex (e.g. SM35-39, VW40-44). I don't go looking for that information, it's emailed directly to me. I actually quite like it as I find it motivates me; others may feel differently. (I wonder if it's an option to request not to receive the email if you really don't want to know your ranking?) So no, it's not a race or a competition, but it's disingenuous to claim that there's no competitive element to parkrun at all!

I would say go for it OnTheList. There are people of all ages and abilities, and most events have a volunteer tail walker whose job it is to come in last and to provide support to those at the back of the course if they need it. One week we had a lady who walked round chatting to the tail walker the whole way, taking close to an hour, and that was absolutely her right to do so. No one got even remotely annoyed or impatient, and there were plenty of people (volunteers and other runners) still about to welcome her at the finish. Everyone's got their own reasons for taking part, and hopefully you'll find that it's a great community to belong to!