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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Trans Park Run Deletion

991 replies

TheUterati · 30/04/2018 12:25

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

  1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
  2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

OP posts:
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SardineReturns · 02/05/2018 19:36

Oh also can't be bothered to go back and cut and paste but this stuff about rape and sexual assault being to do with desire is really grim.

The idea of uncontrollable desire also appalling. Men can control themselves (the vast majority of them). They choose not to. They rape because they can, they are not overwhelmed with lust or whatever, that's an excuse as old as time.

AngryAttackKittens · 02/05/2018 20:10

The idea that rape is about overwhelming desire is so incredibly male that once again I have to ask what this non-physical essence of womanhood is that some male people think they have and how they can continue to insist that they have it in the face of so many women going "wait you think WHAT?"

SardineReturns · 02/05/2018 20:15

Well yes and it's victim blaming as old as time.

It's the victims fault for being so fucking sexy what was he suppposed to do?

Applied of course to all manner of victims. ie not just ones who were done up sexy for a sexy night out in sexville ie it's nothing to do with that AT ALL it is a bogstandard victim blaming excuse, the most popular one there is. I have heard it myself, sadly. "I just fancy you SO MUCH I'm sorry" yeah whatever mate.

SardineReturns · 02/05/2018 20:19

In the interests of obviousness, I don't believe that women who are "done up sexy for a sexy night out in sexville" deserve rape, for anyone who may decide to make a wild misinterpretation on my post.

Men's excuse of "I couldn't help it" is an EXCUSE, unrelated to the victim.

There is always something they can find to explain why they "couldn't help it" - if there was some kind of magical way we could look or dress that would make this not happen then well guess what women and girls would be doing it all over the world. How we look or comport ourselves is irrelevant to rape. What is relevant to rape is presence of a rapist.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 02/05/2018 20:31

Insisting transwomen are singled out with an identifying badge is transphobic

No one has said this

Are you one of those bot thingies or do you just have comprehension issues

SardineReturns · 02/05/2018 21:09

Would be a good one to cut n paste though.

Agree- no-one has said this and so not sure where it's come from.

MargeH · 02/05/2018 21:12

It'll be interesting to see if appears as a screen shot on Twitter

IdentifiesAsMiddleAged · 02/05/2018 21:13

Marge

Yes.

Thanksforthatamazingpost · 02/05/2018 21:27

"Do you think the pressure to be manly by your dad pushed you away from just staying as a feminine man (whatever that means)?"

I was wondering that as well.

Heck, whilst we're asking personal questions, can I ask another one? Women tend to have an image of themselves being looked at/reviewed by men. More than men do. Did you have that feeling when you were supposed to be a boy/man without it? It's just that I wonder whether that feeling is involved with the love of dress and display that a lot of trans women demonstrate (as do many natal women. Though not me!).

AdaRuns · 02/05/2018 21:48

There's an issue in that if you and I sat down and you really really told me what you mean by feeling you've always been a woman, you'd have to talk about all sorts of things that are very person and intimate and most people don't want to do that on the internet.

@Thanksforthatamazingpost, there's nothing to explain really. It's got nothing to do with how I dress, or how I talk, or what I like to do. It's just who I am. I couldn't tell you what I mean by "feeling I've always been right handed" either for example. I don't know why, and I don't know how to explain what that feels like. I just am right handed.

AdaRuns · 02/05/2018 22:00

Anyone registered as a woman and finishing in under 21 minutes in my age category, at my local course, would automatically go to 1st place in the table of 'Top performances by [age/sex category] athletes at [location] parkrun'

@ArtfulPuss before my transition, that was me. I normally ran just over 20 minute runs, and my PB was 19:41. My parkruns are large, and pretty fast, and generally, I'd normally finish somewhere around 5th and generally before the first female finisher.

But I can't run that pace anymore. Now my PB is 23:00 minutes, and instead of finishing between 5th, I finish between 5th and 10th female. I don't have a hope of catching the first female!

jellyfrizz · 02/05/2018 22:04

I couldn't tell you what I mean by "feeling I've always been right handed" either for example. I don't know why, and I don't know how to explain what that feels like. I just am right handed.

Surely it would be something like “I prefer to use my right hand to do stuff like writing, holding a tennis racket and opening jars.” That’s what being right handed means.

spontaneousgiventime · 02/05/2018 22:07

As I suspected, being a woman is all about the feelz. That's what being a woman is now, a feeling!

aaarrrggghhhh · 02/05/2018 22:16

But how can you possibly assume that whatever you "feel" is the same as what an incredibly diverse and numerous number of people?

Women are not some generic blob of a womanly feeling.

Although women do tend to have common experiences and feelings from those experiences because of their biological makeup - and their treatment by society because of their biological makeup.

This is why I find "ciswoman" such a deeply offensive term. You are putting me into a category which identifies people as "women" on some undefined notion of "feelings" which I simply don't recognise.

aaarrrggghhhh · 02/05/2018 22:21

Sorry - posted too soon.

The point is that women may tend to have some common feelings - for example the feeling of being valued on the basis of their reproductive output - but that is not some inherent "womanly feeling". It is a result of a common social response to a biological fact.

Of course some women disagree and consider that there is some innate womanly spirit. And fair game to them and if that's what they believe then fine.

But the point is not all women think that. And if some women don't think that then how can this notion of a "feeling" of being a woman - independent of biological reality have any credibility as a commonality?

AdaRuns · 02/05/2018 22:45

Surely it would be something like “I prefer to use my right hand to do stuff like writing, holding a tennis racket and opening jars.” That’s what being right handed means.

But that's not what makes me right handed. That's just stuff that happens after the fact because I already was right handed. Going deeper than that, I can't explain it though. Why am I right handed? Why can't I be left handed? Why can't I be both? Does it feel the same as other right handed people? I can't answer any of those questions, in the same way I can't tell you why I'm a woman, or what it "feels like", or whether my experience is the same as anyone elses.

This is something I have no choice in. I've spent most of my life trying to deny it. To continue the analogy, I've spent most of my life trying to pretend I was left handed, in a world full of people telling me I'm left handed, it's never been right. I'm not left handed, and I can't make myself left handed or be socialised in to it. I can pretend, but that gets hard to sustain eventually, and it's very isolating, because no one ever gets to see the real me, I'm always lying through omission to people when I let them believe I'm left handed.

And yeah, I know it's a stupid analogy, but I use it, because it's an innate aspect of people that we're born with, that isn't inherently visible, and one in which people have been forced to use a hand they're not comfortable with.

My gender identity is like that. And I have no answers for why it is the way it is. It's just there. And it won't go away. And it closed me off from people in my life, and was sending me to ever darker places. It put a barrier between me and my own emotions, and it robbed my life of richness.

And I fully accept that many people simply won't see it as valid. And I accept that people won't or can't understand it. But it got to the point where I had no choice, because whether you or anyone else understands it or not, it's real, and it's not going anywhere, and ignoring it was slowly destroying my life.

This, right here, out in the open, with people who won't accept my identity, with politicians arguing for the right to treat me differently, with the backlash I face, it's still better than where I was at, because I'm finally not pretending to be someone I'm not. And I wish I could explain it in a way that would let other people understand, but, I can't. I try, but I know it doesn't work, yet still, I'm happier than I've ever been. I've got purpose and passion for life back. My relationship with my son is richer and healthier, I'm closer to my mother than I've ever been in my life, I'm socially active, I'm volunteering, both at parkrun and within trans communities.

And that stuff makes it worth it, living as me, and getting to live for the first time in my life, that's worth all of the other stuff.

thebewilderness · 02/05/2018 22:53

Why can't I be left handed?

You can. All it takes is practice. You can even be ambidextrous with practice. I started life favoring my left hand but i am ambidextrous because I practiced using my right.

spontaneousgiventime · 02/05/2018 22:55

When a trans woman appears on MN we are faced with walls of text of how they feel like a woman, can't explain what a woman feels like. Posts a tale of woe or becomes lead violinist for the Royal Philharmonic.

Then...

Life is wonderful, I'm my true authentic self (baring in mind they have no idea what a woman feels like). Relationships are wonderful, life is amazing.

Then...

You read a trans forum, any trans forum and there is wall to wall text of how difficult life is, how they wish they weren't trans, the world hates them, they can't get x £1000 from the NHS, family have abandoned them and on and on and on.

The bottom line is.... Trans people come to MN to tell us how wonderful they are and we should accept them and get back into the kitchen and make jam.

FloraFox · 02/05/2018 22:59

It's easy to describe how a person knows they are right or left handed - it's the dominant hand that they use more skilfully than the other hand. I know I am right handed because that is that hand that dominates for fine motor skills like writing. My DM was left handed and my DD is ambidextrous. We clearly know the difference between us in this respect.

A better analogy to your situation is to say that I feel like I'm left handed even though my dominant and more dextrous hand is my right hand. But what would those feelings be that make me feel like I'm left handed? I can't think of anything.

That doesn't help with explaining what it is about being a woman that you feel you are and how you have identified that feeling as being "I'm a woman".

What if I said I felt like I was made of glass (this used to be a thing)? I might say I feel I might shatter if something strikes me hard or I feel that people can see through me. At least there I am explaining to you the association I think I have with glass. But you can't give any explanation of the association you think you have with being a woman. Either that or you have an idea of it but you don't want to share it because you know we won't like it.

AdaRuns · 02/05/2018 23:06

@spontaneousgiventime I think that's a bit unfair. I'm here because people were literally talking about me in the initial thread. All I did initially was talk about parkrun and times to clarify things in that space. Then people started asking questions about larger issues of being trans. Every detailed length response I've made about my experience as a trans person has been in response to a direct question from someone.

I'm trying to participate in good faith, and I feel like you're portraying my intentions unfairly. I'm happy to simply avoid the larger discussion of trans identity and stick to parkrun if that's what people prefer.

FloraFox · 02/05/2018 23:09

People were not talking about you in the initial thread, the OP of that thread came on this thread to say so.

spontaneousgiventime · 02/05/2018 23:11

@AdaRuns I have never sworn on MN, I've never even come close but you know what? I don't give a shite what you think. There is a pregnant woman receiving death threats and people hoping her baby is stillborn. They are vile wicked TRA who follow Shon Faye on Twitter. So no, I don't give a shiny shit how you feel. Getit?

AdaRuns · 02/05/2018 23:12

A better analogy to your situation is to say that I feel like I'm left handed even though my dominant and more dextrous hand is my right hand. But what would those feelings be that make me feel like I'm left handed? I can't think of anything.

Maybe that is a better analogy. And just like I can't explain how or why I am left handed in that analogy despite being more proficient with my right hand, I can't explain why I'm a woman, especially in light of the fact that my gender identity doesn't align with my physicality. But my lack of ability to explain it or understand it doesn't change who I am. The fact that it's out of alignment with my body doesn't change who I am.

AdaRuns · 02/05/2018 23:14

People were not talking about you in the initial thread, the OP of that thread came on this thread to say so.

They were. I wasn't the person that OP was talking about, but people did start talking about the article that parkrun Australia did about me.

AdaRuns · 02/05/2018 23:17

So no, I don't give a shiny shit how you feel. Getit?

No, to be honest, I don't understand. I've never felt like that towards anyone...

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