Trans Park Run Deletion

[TheUterati]

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

I think it is a lack of understanding from many users on the likes of MN that is the problem for not seeing that there are clear parallels between the issues faced and that instead of dividing and shrinking away from trans issues, natal women should helping to protect us.

This is the reason that I think it a mistake for women to provide narcissistic feed to males on FWR.

Maybe it is just me but this idea of women as servants and "human shields" for transgender identified males creeps me right the eff out.

@AngryAttackKittens - I had this whole reply typed out to further your reply but I think at this point I am just going to step back and say I apologise if a couple of times under them interchangeably. I will still reply to your message as promised but as of yet, I have not typed it and I have plans this evening.

@TERFragetteCity - As much as saying this will put me on the TRAs naughty list, personally I think that a trans woman (or man) needs to have the hormonal levels comparable to a natal person of their acquired gender/sex to not have to place themselves with the sex they were born as providing they do not still, at this point possess other characteristics that would give them an unfair advantage. In the case of running for example, that would be having longer legs than is statistically common for a natal female.

@LangCleg - Haha no problem. it was getting too loosely related back to the topic. :)

I mean if it truly was that important to people then I guess I could just not bother scanning and solely go off of the time my phone using endomondo gives me but.. I would feel like there was no point in being there.. I might as well have just done my normal 5km run not at Parkrun.

And whilst my sex might be male, my closest peers are female (natally speaking) but I don't want to go back around in circles.

Sorry.

I was eating dinner when it suddenly occurred to me, NatLuc doesn't like women discussing women's issues (judging by the posts here). NatLuc also doesn't like trans people discussing trans issues on a trans forum NatLuc doesn't like.

Make of that what you will - I have.

As far as Park run goes, women fought for womens events, TW could do the same, fight for their own spaces rather than encroach on ours.

The whole topic is relevant to park run so we have not gone off topic.

It is also relevant to what is happening in society.

Can I ask Lucy did you ever consider yourself gay? A personal question I know but that is often the case when men say I feel like a woman they mean they are not butch etc as “men should be” - bad example I know.

Actually, that's exactly what I'm talking about. I accept you as you. A discrete person, an individual. I don't need to give you a label of man or woman, because in this sense you indeed "just are". You're an Ada. I'm a Yambabe. Our biology is irrelevant to a degree. It's essential in determining some medical issues, of course, and it needs to be considered to give both of us safety and protections against discrimination based on it.

I can't tell you how much I'd love to live in that world! But I don't. If I don't actively tell the world who I am, then people will keep telling me I'm someone I'm not. And as nice as it would be to worry less about this label, having the wrong one repeatedly stuck on me is a really unpleasant experience that I'm keen to avoid.

That is the world feminists are aiming for (sorry Rat, most feminists, I do not speak for all feminists obvs.). The concept of gender is damaging to everyone.

Females completely understand being told we are someone we are not, it is a constant battle and a reason that many hate being called cis.

@spontaneousgiventime - Hope you enjoyed your dinner. :)

@Newsofas - No, you can ask, no problem at all but I need to confirm if you mean did I think I was a gay man or gay in the sense of a trans girl being attracted to women? (I know that question is a WHOLE can of fire ants on its own.. but yeah)

Honestly.. I was asked on numerous occasions if I was gay. But at 13.. I honestly didn't have an answer, I would just sort of screech out 'I like girls!' without directly answering in the affirmative or negative. I did not have access to people or online resources to discuss this stuff so I just sat on the thought in my mind of 'something is wrong with me' until I did have the resources and access needed to explore. I think I touched on in an earlier post about how it was my dad that tried to impart on to me 'what a man should be' whereas my grandmother just let me be myself.

Before reading this thread I didn't know runs could be classified as 'assisted'. I would genuinely love to witness a husky-dog-assisted run. Sadly no dogs allowed on our course. But apart from people running with super-fast dogs, is it currently used in any other circumstances? (Sorry, no wish to derail, just idly wondering!)

This is the reason that I think it a mistake for women to provide narcissistic feed to males on FWR.

It helps insofar as asking TIM about their experiences highlights how very different their lives and experiences are compared to women.

But Maybe it is just me but this idea of women as servants and "human shields" for transgender identified males creeps me right the eff out., yes I agree. The fact that they don't see why it is wrong worries me.

trans women are at an elevated risk of straight up getting killed or the seven shades of shit beaten out of us.

fairplayforwomen.com/trans-murder-rates/

Transpeople are very unlikely to be murdered in the UK.

8 transpeople were murdered here between 2008 & 2017 and 11 transpeople murdered in Europe in 2016. Compare that to an average of two women being killed per week in the UK & that may explain a bit more why the suggestion that women should be doing the protecting hasn't gone down very well.

Yes, I am a trans woman, but trans women live and breath the role of woman.

What role is that, exactly?

A few people have asked this now. I'd like to know too.

2 women a week are murdered by their male partners in the UK. The statistics do not support the assertion that trans people are at a risk more elevated than that.

BeUpStanding Wed 02-May-18 17:25:34
I thought the sensible suggestion was for transwomen to put F but mark it as assisted? What's wrong with that idea?

Insisting transwomen are singled out with an identifying badge is transphobic

Insisting transwomen are singled out with an identifying badge is transphobic

. Why do you want them to wear a badge?

I think I'm seeing a pattern here. I mean; I can't be sure, but....

Insisting transwomen are singled out with an identifying badge is transphobic

Well don't ask them to wear a badge then, we (women) don't. Transphobe.

Badge? What badge??

No, you can ask, no problem at all but I need to confirm if you mean did I think I was a gay man or gay in the sense of a trans girl being attracted to women?

I think she probably understands that gay means same SEX attracted.

As previously suggested, giving a 'prefer not say' option, where the time is not included in the age/sex stats, might work. This might also appeal to those who consistently come in last or thereabouts. They would still get a time, but not a ranked position, and no explanation would be necessary.

Lucy, I'm impressed you are considering various options and can see why it might not be fair as it stands. That is commendable.

Ooh I got quoted!

Respectfully I disagree, as there are various reasons why someone would mark themselves as assisted.

Does the pattern have something to do with not reading the thread?

Oh yes, and nobody said anything about wearing a badge. That's a fucking horrible suggestion and no-one has ever said it.

Thank you everyone who also pointed that out.

Thank you Lucy. I meant gay as in being attracted to men when you were younger.

Do you think the pressure to be manly by your dad pushed you away from just staying as a feminine man (whatever that means)?

" Trans women competing with men makes no sense"

If woman is a "social role" and not "adult human female"

Then man / men is a "social role" as well and nothing to do with "adult human male

Therefore it makes no difference whatsoever as man / men, woman/ women imply / represent nothing whatsoever to do with a persons physical body.

I mean this is ridiculous obviously as girl and woman are not "social roles" but mean grown up female person and young female person respectively, I don't know anyone who uses "woman" or "girl" to mean anything other than "grown up cunty person" or "child cunty person" respctively.

Masculine / feminine are social role / gender.

Femininity involves a set of behaviours that women are girls are supposed to adopt / display, and that are polcied to a greater or lesser extent all over the world, vary between countries to some extent, and include norms of appearance (clothes, hair etc)

Ditto masculine but for males.

"Woman" as a "social role" what does that even mean? Is it this thing that once it's explained, it will turn out that most cunty people don't fit?

What is the word for young cunty people / grown up cunty people? How can we say "In X country, girls are rarely educated past the age of 11" for example, what do we say instead of "girls"?

Oops back to front and repetitive but anyway.