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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Impact of Online Harassment/Trolling

161 replies

womanformallyknownaswoman · 28/04/2018 12:11

The impact of unrelenting trolling, whether sealioning/concern trolling/flaming discussions/ weaponising the mod reporting system, is a form of coercive control as it disrupts the free flow of women commenting and thinking. I think we do very well here to contain it. Sometimes it helps to educate others by dismantling/exposing the methods and motives of trolls. I get that. However it's a fine line between that and actually enabling harm when individuals are targeted/mobbed, whether directly on the board or by covert malicious reporting.

Verbal abuse is very harmful and many don't understand it and it's insidious effects in detail. Those who have experienced intimate partner and/or family violence in their history tend to have a lower harm threshold than those who don't.

As an illustration, I have altered the effects of verbal abuse in domestic situations to apply to an online environment:

• Your troll/stalker criticises you and makes you doubt yourself. You might start believing that you’re a not good poster or lucky to have a right to comment at all.
• You feel anxious and stressed in your troll’s presence. You worry about how your online harasser might react and this makes you change your behaviour (like agreeing with them more) to avoid arguments with them.
• You feel intimidated and scared of your online harasser when they get angry — their behaviour might be unpredictable or aggressive. It silences you and forces you to stop commenting.
• You’re made to feel guilty and not given the freedom to say the things you want to say. Your online stalker might control you by telling you what you can and can’t believe, say or think. They may also emotionally blackmail you.

I have described Verbal Abuse at length below in the final part of the post, for those who are interested. Patricia Evan’s book - The Verbally Abusive Relationship - is great. There’s chapter or two where she goes through each of the verbal abuse tactics, what it looks like and so on, plus gives rebuttals. If you’re in an intimate partnership I would go on to read Lundy Bancroft’s “Why Does He Do That?” (as TheBewilderness recommended somewhere else)- the bible for all women in relationships. Both authors have YouTubes and are quoted extensively online, so important are their contributions.

My question is do we need more containment e.g. a code word which, when used, means you are being forced to close down/leave? That you are feeling harmed? Do we need to highlight the trolls more where they are swamping a thread and refusing to go away. What about where modding is weaponised?

I still think better informed modding is the key but that is unlikely to occur soon. I tend to leave if feeling "got at" or the unrelenting gas lighting gets too much. There seems to be enough of us collectively to hold the trolls to account at present and we rely on people self caring by taking time out. Maybe everything is fine. I thought I would check by asking the question.

ABOUT VERBAL ABUSE
Verbal abuse creates emotional pain and mental anguish. It is a lie told to you or about you. Generally, verbal abuse defines people, telling them what they are, what they think, their motives, and so forth. ….Usually one person is blaming, accusing, even name calling, and the other is defending and explaining.

Most people targeted by verbal abuse try to explain to the abuser why what they’ve just heard is not true or not okay. They explain themselves because they believe the perpetrator is rational and can hear them and the relationship will then get better. Then they usually hear more verbal abuse, for instance, “You’re too sensitive.” At that point they don’t usually realize that they have just been defined, and, therefore, verbally abused again.

Since the target of verbal abuse is often blamed, ignored, or yelled at, she may have difficulty recognizing just what is going on in the relationship.

Verbal abuse includes withholding, bullying, defaming, defining, trivializing, harassing, diverting, interrogating, accusing, blaming, blocking, countering, lying, berating, taunting, put downs, abuse disguised as a joke, discounting, threatening, name-calling, yelling and raging.

FRANCE PASSES LAW ON PSYCHOLOGICAL VIOLENCE (couldn't find UK stats)
“...the main abuse helpline for women in France received 90,000 calls a year."Of these, 84% concern psychological violence,"..."We have introduced an important measure here, which recognises psychological violence, because it isn't just blows [that hurt] but also words," Nadine Morano, the minister for family affairs, told the lower house of parliament.”

Source: I prefer this old website of hers that has lots of content on it

OP posts:
UpstartCrow · 28/04/2018 12:19

This should be the pinned post for this board Star

womanformallyknownaswoman · 28/04/2018 16:37

UpstartCrow

Thx - nice for one's input to be appreciated :)

OP posts:
thebewilderness · 29/04/2018 02:30

I agree this should be a pinned post!

Weezol · 29/04/2018 02:43

Pinned post please @MNHQ. Are you ever going to give a proper response to questions about trained/paid overnight moderators?

Weezol · 29/04/2018 03:34

It seems there isn't even a moderator on tonight.

TotallyLibrarianPoo · 29/04/2018 03:46

This is an important message woman, thank you! I don't know what a pinned post is, but if it helps those who are struggling with trolls then I'm all for it!

thebewilderness · 29/04/2018 05:50

Pinning this post means that it stays at the top of the list of posts on Feminist chat.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 29/04/2018 07:23

I'm heartened others see this as important too! The post is long and very pertinent to here as in real life.

So often verbal abuse is conflated with robust argument. I think we need more civilised (i.e. non abusive) debate everywhere and to out those who deceive and control using verbal tricks. Because women are silenced through those tactics. In Parliament as on here, it's women paying the price for the male public school debating society playing field and rules. In that arena, verbal abuse is normalised.

Trolls really don't deserve any attention imo, as they thrive on any attention, negative and positive. What I note is the trolls never defer to our arguments - no deference to points made, lived experience of and so on.

I know they are good practise for dealing with verbal abuse in real life - so we can keep some on golden handcuffs - to reinforce not accepting their rabbit holes of arguments and to keep on coming back to the main thrust of the argument (which they will always attempt to obfuscate in some way).

But when is enough enough on a thread / on here / in real life? And when do the women, especially those who have a lived experience of violence, get to be left alone to be, to heal and discuss with other women, in safety? Why are verbal abusers enabled in any walk of life?

I am so grateful for the collective here and one other place I know online(Reddit GC), plus all those women in real life, who strive through different means to create women's safe spaces, despite little support from those in charge.

OP posts:
littlevoiceofsanity · 29/04/2018 08:03

Wonderful post OP and timely. Particularly the reporting of civil posts because the content is disliked by those of a different opinion (and yes I'm looking at you Growing-up-trans@Dadtrans. This poster uses the same name on twitter and is known to block anyone showing the slightest desire to question the ideology he broadcasts).

womanformallyknownaswoman · 29/04/2018 16:46

Bump

OP posts:
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 29/04/2018 17:03

womanformallyknownaswoman

Thanks for this thread, it's very useful, but depressingly, all the examples you cite are very common on here at times.

Xenophile · 29/04/2018 17:32

Very pertinent.

There are a couple of posters on here, who when I see their posts, I tend to just hide the thread now. One, because he talks such utter bollocks, but does it from a position of what he believes is intellectual superiority he is impervious to reason and we've tried, for years, but he's just so much cleverer than us

The other I haven't seen post for ages, but has the biggest martyr complex I've ever seen. Says awful things and then clogs up the rest of the thread wailing that people have been mean to them.

Online trolling is akin to verbal abuse. Contrary to popular wisdom, it's not just words on a screen. I do miss that woman though

TotallyLibrarianPoo · 29/04/2018 18:54

I have to admit to being ticked off on (I think it was) Italiangreyhound's behalf the other night. She was one of the very few that bothered with the oddball PBP. She wrote a very long post that answered all of his points. And after all his whining that everyone was ignoring him, he completely discounted her contribution. So not interested in discussion after all just more stupid head games. I know she's a strong woman, but I still felt bad as it was crappy to be dismissed after she had taken the time to reply to all the damn points he was ranting about. Flowers for her.

May sound childish, but I've started paying attention to how thebewilderness responds when a new poster shows up. She has the most amazing BS detector I've ever witnessed!

thebewilderness · 29/04/2018 19:13

That is very kind of you, Librarian. I am a complete sucker for a troll asking questions so my learning curve has been steep and painful.

I agree with you that his dismissal of italiangreyhound made it clear to everyone tempted to give him benefit of doubt that his purpose was only to goad. I think that is why she did it. I hope so.

Pratchet · 29/04/2018 20:56

Bump because everyone should read this

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 29/04/2018 21:00

Totally agree with totally

busyboysmum · 29/04/2018 21:12

Yes we need this to be pinned. We are under attack ATM.

ISaySteadyOn · 29/04/2018 22:08

Bumping. Thanks, woman.

AngryAttackKittens · 29/04/2018 22:53

My question would be, with the very obviously anti-feminist male trolls (and we have a couple), why haven't they been banned already? They add nothing to any discussion other than irritation for everyone else, and potentially trauma for women whose experiences they're handwaving away as unimportant.

BlackeyedSusan · 29/04/2018 22:58

on the other hand, when someone has replied and another poster whines that they are being ignored, it shows them up as too stupid to read, whiny or having an agender to paint themselves as the victim.

of course if loads of people replied it would be ganging up on them.

another example of fuckwittery ex used to try and use.
if I reminded him, i was nagging, if not he could not be held responsible for forgetting. called him out on it on numerous occasions.

Weezol · 29/04/2018 23:31

Angry Because trolls use multiple IP addresses or VPN, which means their digital 'identity' is forever changing so basic filters cannot recognise repeat offenders.

This is why some Mumsnetters with were so bloody angry about the data breach, because staff background checks and data access permissions are IT security basics, just like locking the car when you park it up. You only had to type that intern's name into Google and 'click' search to see exactly how and why that beach occurred.

womanformallyknownaswoman has a really vital and important point about HQ seeing that this is abuse and not letting up on trying to get some kind of response from HQ about properly trained moderators.

I'm also extremely concerned about the cover overnight which is happy hunting time for bridge dwellers.

AngryAttackKittens · 29/04/2018 23:35

Well yeah, but the people I was referring to don't do that, and have been here for a while under the same usernames. Maybe others don't regard engaging only on threads about rape or other ways in which men harm women in order to tell women that they're wrong about their own experiences as trolling. What I'm saying is that I think we should, and that there should be a process for removing those commenters.

LassWiADelicateAir · 29/04/2018 23:38

Why do you bother replying to those obviously goading threads?

There is one troll who is clearly the same person cutting and pasting. Why not just click "hide thread" and move on to something more interesting?

And I really don't see the point of all the replies about recipes or whatever. All you are doing is showing him he has got your attention.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 29/04/2018 23:42

the replies about recipes

I don't necessarily disagree

But

A) unfortunately its about my level

B) the bewilderness posted a lemon curd recipe...so it was worth doing for that

AngryAttackKittens · 29/04/2018 23:44

Also, Weezol, every single time you've directly responded to me so far it's been condescending as hell. Maybe try not talking to me like I'm 5 years old, eh?

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