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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Impact of Online Harassment/Trolling

161 replies

womanformallyknownaswoman · 28/04/2018 12:11

The impact of unrelenting trolling, whether sealioning/concern trolling/flaming discussions/ weaponising the mod reporting system, is a form of coercive control as it disrupts the free flow of women commenting and thinking. I think we do very well here to contain it. Sometimes it helps to educate others by dismantling/exposing the methods and motives of trolls. I get that. However it's a fine line between that and actually enabling harm when individuals are targeted/mobbed, whether directly on the board or by covert malicious reporting.

Verbal abuse is very harmful and many don't understand it and it's insidious effects in detail. Those who have experienced intimate partner and/or family violence in their history tend to have a lower harm threshold than those who don't.

As an illustration, I have altered the effects of verbal abuse in domestic situations to apply to an online environment:

• Your troll/stalker criticises you and makes you doubt yourself. You might start believing that you’re a not good poster or lucky to have a right to comment at all.
• You feel anxious and stressed in your troll’s presence. You worry about how your online harasser might react and this makes you change your behaviour (like agreeing with them more) to avoid arguments with them.
• You feel intimidated and scared of your online harasser when they get angry — their behaviour might be unpredictable or aggressive. It silences you and forces you to stop commenting.
• You’re made to feel guilty and not given the freedom to say the things you want to say. Your online stalker might control you by telling you what you can and can’t believe, say or think. They may also emotionally blackmail you.

I have described Verbal Abuse at length below in the final part of the post, for those who are interested. Patricia Evan’s book - The Verbally Abusive Relationship - is great. There’s chapter or two where she goes through each of the verbal abuse tactics, what it looks like and so on, plus gives rebuttals. If you’re in an intimate partnership I would go on to read Lundy Bancroft’s “Why Does He Do That?” (as TheBewilderness recommended somewhere else)- the bible for all women in relationships. Both authors have YouTubes and are quoted extensively online, so important are their contributions.

My question is do we need more containment e.g. a code word which, when used, means you are being forced to close down/leave? That you are feeling harmed? Do we need to highlight the trolls more where they are swamping a thread and refusing to go away. What about where modding is weaponised?

I still think better informed modding is the key but that is unlikely to occur soon. I tend to leave if feeling "got at" or the unrelenting gas lighting gets too much. There seems to be enough of us collectively to hold the trolls to account at present and we rely on people self caring by taking time out. Maybe everything is fine. I thought I would check by asking the question.

ABOUT VERBAL ABUSE
Verbal abuse creates emotional pain and mental anguish. It is a lie told to you or about you. Generally, verbal abuse defines people, telling them what they are, what they think, their motives, and so forth. ….Usually one person is blaming, accusing, even name calling, and the other is defending and explaining.

Most people targeted by verbal abuse try to explain to the abuser why what they’ve just heard is not true or not okay. They explain themselves because they believe the perpetrator is rational and can hear them and the relationship will then get better. Then they usually hear more verbal abuse, for instance, “You’re too sensitive.” At that point they don’t usually realize that they have just been defined, and, therefore, verbally abused again.

Since the target of verbal abuse is often blamed, ignored, or yelled at, she may have difficulty recognizing just what is going on in the relationship.

Verbal abuse includes withholding, bullying, defaming, defining, trivializing, harassing, diverting, interrogating, accusing, blaming, blocking, countering, lying, berating, taunting, put downs, abuse disguised as a joke, discounting, threatening, name-calling, yelling and raging.

FRANCE PASSES LAW ON PSYCHOLOGICAL VIOLENCE (couldn't find UK stats)
“...the main abuse helpline for women in France received 90,000 calls a year."Of these, 84% concern psychological violence,"..."We have introduced an important measure here, which recognises psychological violence, because it isn't just blows [that hurt] but also words," Nadine Morano, the minister for family affairs, told the lower house of parliament.”

Source: I prefer this old website of hers that has lots of content on it

OP posts:
AngryAttackKittens · 30/04/2018 09:16

The only reason it's concerning me to the point where I'm going all Machiavelli is that I think that a. they're attempting to use the weaknesses in moderation to shut specific people and conversations down in a targeted way and b. it may well work, given how moderation is currently handled.

LangCleg · 30/04/2018 09:20

The only reason it's concerning me to the point where I'm going all Machiavelli is that I think that a. they're attempting to use the weaknesses in moderation to shut specific people and conversations down in a targeted way and b. it may well work, given how moderation is currently handled.

And it's not as though I don't fear you are right! I do!

I have to keep it bearable for me to come on here though, you know? I hate to make one report, let alone spending forever doing it. I'd just get fed up and go and talk elsewhere, most likely.

What I can do, and what is probably more in the spirit of the thread, is point out abusive dynamics when I see them on here. And not be deterred if I get deleted for doing it. That's much more my style!

AngryAttackKittens · 30/04/2018 09:24

Yeah, it's irritating me to be having to think about this stuff too. The problem with pointing out abusive dynamics at the moment is that it just seems to lead to more sealioning, and then the thread becomes about how awful it is that someone pointed out the sealion's shitty behavior.

Cluster B personalities, always fun times to interact with.

KittyKlaws · 30/04/2018 09:25

Actually may be different people than the ones you mean. The MRAs are fewer in number than the TRAs but also an ongoing issue, imo

The ones I mean are MRAs rather than TRAs - I'd be interested in who you mean too - if only to avoid them.

KittyKlaws · 30/04/2018 09:26

I know it's not fair. I know it's infuriating. But I just can't be a forum police officer. It would make my time here miserable - and I'd end up leaving of my own volition.

I know what you mean and I for one, would rather you just stayed and responded in your own way. If people like you did leave it would be a win for them.

LangCleg · 30/04/2018 09:27

So true.

LangCleg · 30/04/2018 09:28

(So true to Angry, not Kitty being nice to me!)

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 30/04/2018 09:28

lang

But you'd look awesome in the uniform!!

AngryAttackKittens · 30/04/2018 09:29

The TRA don't really wind me up the same way, in that their basic premises are so absurd that no matter how hard they push most people will never buy it. Societal peak trans is approaching, it's just a matter of trying to minimize the harm to women and children in the meantime and try to prevent changes in law/policy that will be difficult to undo. The more the public hears from TRAs the better, honestly. Sunlight is the best disinfectant and all.

With the MRAs though, they play into very active misogynistic tropes that unfortunately many people do believe, which makes them dangerous.

AngryAttackKittens · 30/04/2018 09:30

Plus, when MRAs are allowed to piss all over threads about rape or domestic violence I worry about the impact that has on women who're already dealing with related trauma.

KittyKlaws · 30/04/2018 09:34

I agree AngryAK the MRAs are dangerous and they annoy me far more but I try to avoid the board when they are there (but I'd rather not do this). They have been around longer than these TRAs who aren't as sophisticated in their posting. It annoys me because the issue of porn and feminism is one I have long been invested in and even written about and they are ALWAYS on those threads with their insincerity, posturing and strawman arguments.

AngryAttackKittens · 30/04/2018 09:43

So maybe we can figure out a collective way to handle the intrusion of MRAs onto those threads here. What if we just starved them of oxygen completely? Agree upon a phrase or word that means "obvious MRA, will enjoy it if you get upset, don't engage", and then nobody responds to anything they say? Or responds with a biscuit and then moves on to engaging with other women.

Kneedeepinunicorns · 30/04/2018 09:47

how many women and children have to be harmed before the more stubborn members of the political and media classes will admit that maybe they made a mistake?

For me one of the most depressing things about this whole clusterfuck of self ID proposals isn't that people are stubborn or making mistakes. It's that the majority of our politicians are people too busy self obsessing on their own personal agendas and virtue signalling for popularity to bother to think or research what bandwagons they promote. Many of them should never have been allowed into positions of responsibility, are not basically competent to the standard of most basic professional posts, and aren't capable of putting things like the general good or ethics first.

The trolling here is frustrating, not least that as usual the women here are held to standards of behaviour and ethics that the other side gleefully spit on if they're aware of them at all, and are as usual expected to have no feelings, never show temper or anger, patiently return good to endless provocation and stupidity and a complete lack of any reasoned logic, and defend absolutely everything. I've stopped participating lately, not because of the trolling but because the endless defending and explaining just validates the debate, the ridiculous jargon and the sheer stupidity of much of it.

But as pps have said: the conversations here aren't for the lunatic fringe who don't care and won't read anyway. They're for the MNetters lurking or randomly clicking on threads, because it shows very clearly what is wrong with the TRA agenda, the kind of people who are pushing it, the complete lack of ethical behaviour or ability to care about other people, the extreme immaturity and pathological thinking that characterises much of it, and the hatred for women that underpins it all. From that point of view, yes, the more TRA/MRA/Incel nuts being emotionally incontinent here the better.

KittyKlaws · 30/04/2018 09:51

I think a collective word or phrase which is innocuous enough would be useful. The biscuit bugs me but I'd be willing to use it (if I have to) Wink

Maybe something like 'interesting contribution' which has no negative connotations.

KittyKlaws · 30/04/2018 09:53

From that point of view, yes, the more TRA/MRA/Incel nuts being emotionally incontinent here the better.

I know you have a point here and I understand it but I worry it stops women engaging on this board too. I mean who can be arsed dealing with some of these people voluntarily?

Kneedeepinunicorns · 30/04/2018 09:53

Angry the sharing recipes works well Wink Clear immediate message.

There are a very few posters who stick around long enough that when I see their name I automatically don't bother to read or respond to their post because it will always be discreet trolling and a waste of time engaging.

AngryAttackKittens · 30/04/2018 09:54

As an aside, the fact that the biscuit is considered by some to be unspeakably rude and HQ have said that a whole thread of them could be considered harassment is about as perfect an illustration of women being held to a higher standards as I can think of. For men - rape and death threats are fine, insult women all you like. For women - did you just post a biscuit smiley at someone? See, this is proof that women are terrible and must be stopped.

lightthedarkness · 30/04/2018 09:54

AAK It's like the TGLWGH - so good in principle but hard to do in practice on a fast moving board.

With some current posters I'm Confused about why a number of long standing posters are giving them such attention? They have an agenda, they are not in the slightest bit interested in feminism and their agenda is very anti women.

Apart from the glorious derailing in recent nights aimed at an evident troll - which was fab, I just don't get why people keep engaging with them? (but am happy to accept I'm missing the point).

AngryAttackKittens · 30/04/2018 09:57

I'd be up for recipes as a response. Potentially useful to others, annoys the snot out of the person who's desperately trying to get our attention, and really, how do you frame a bunch of women sharing recipes as evil and a danger to society?

Also other non-recipe info. I had no idea about the flesh eating properties of pineapple juice and will now be more careful with it!

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 30/04/2018 10:02

d HQ have said that a whole thread of them could be considered harassment

You are kidding me!!

I dont even know what to say

Dh keeps sending me an emoji which is supposed to be a hug but looks more like a vagina when it appears on my phone, something like this...({})

Thats ruder than a biscuit

I don't know why people engage...there was a thread the other day and I thought it would be awesome if it was left empty, but someone still bit

lightthedarkness · 30/04/2018 10:02

I'd go with recipes. No doubt MNHQ will be inundated with cries of derail but they're under siege at the moment anyway.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 30/04/2018 10:03

Im very shallow...i just join in

Its a fault

AngryAttackKittens · 30/04/2018 10:04

If DH sent me that emoji I'd assume he was flirting (badly).

LangCleg · 30/04/2018 10:05

I like the talk of tea varieties and recipes and cake icing.

It's a very clear and obvious response to the entry of a poisonous troll and it's also fun and funny and positive. I like it when women control a conversation like that.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 30/04/2018 10:07

Christ the man can't flirt!!!

I think its honestly a hug on his emoji screen

I don't know how that makes a hug...

Anyway...im fairly positive I'm derailing

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