“Incel”

[Scribblegirl]

Just come across this horrific phrase in the context of the Canadian attacks. I’ve always thought I was relatively aware but this completely passed me by.

Does anyone have any background resources they can share on the phrase/“movement”? Not sure I can face some of the murkier sites my first searches found.

Weirdly, though, that makes me want to give more credit to men who at least try to see past that sort of socialization. 'Trying to be a good guy' and being a bit blind to one's own faults is still worth something, if it's in the teeth of so many influences to the contrary.

Hadley has tweeted about them today twitter.com/HadleyFreeman/status/989070345134014464
twitter.com/HadleyFreeman/status/989074043130269696

Oh she’s good. I do like Hadley. I often wonder if she’s on here.

I see what you're saying @Lancelottie but the problem with 'good guys' is that they often have far more power and control than the outright misogynists and any misogyny they have is hidden deeply within a facade of niceness protected very fiercely by a belief in their own righteousness. As long as the misogyny remains hidden it is nigh on impossible to tackle and the overall effect of the combined hidden misogyny is damaging in a way that is different to but equally as destructive as outright misogyny.

Take all those 'good guys' who claim not to see mess and who insist on doing their 'hobby' for six hours a week while their wives stay at home with the children and become more and more worn down with exhaustion and resentment. It's not abuse, it's not outright misogyny but it condemns enormous amounts of women to years of unnecessary stress and unhappiness. So many women in that position are made to feel that they're lucky because their husband earns enough to 'allow' them to stay home and act as skivvy to everyone. It's a total con and one that massively benefits the men who get the added bonus of thinking they're absolutely fantastic because they take the kids to the park for an hour on a Saturday and change a few nappies.

I’ve never heard a genuinely decent man describe himself as a ‘nice guy.’

The apologism in that article is shocking

twitter.com/ObjectUK/status/984157067735961600
Another thread, which touches on the cross over between incels and TRAs (or more accurately hijacking). Note: this is about how the good will and trust placed in the trans community is being abused. It is not an attack on transwomen.

Indeed this thread was linked to and highlighted by a transwoman who is horrified by this every bit as much as women because it is also a threat to them.

I personally think it is somewhat brave of them to do so, because they may be lumped in with this. And this is why I am trying to be very careful in my wording here. It is important there is a distinction made. It is also important that this is not ignored and is written off as nothing either. This exists. It is not nothing.

It is disturbing so read with caution. It is the absolute dregs of society.

From the BBC

"Incel" is short for "involuntarily celibate" and in particular refers to online groups of men who feel that they can't enter into sexual relationships.

The attitudes of men who visit the boards vary widely, but online they frequently vent anger against sexually prolific men ("Chads") and women ("Stacys"). More generally, incel forums often include rants aimed at feminism and women.

In November, Reddit banned a section or subreddit of its site devoted to incels for hosting violent content.

On Tuesday, another subreddit dedicated to incels, r/Malecel, was banned.

However, other similar boards remain active on Reddit, and many other sites play host to incel discussions.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-43881931#

There is something of a problem here with it all becoming mainstream. This stuff is extremist and a social contagion. The more publicity it gets, the more people who didn't know about it, are drawn to it. In some senses it needs to be treated like suicide reporting. (I believe the same for all terrorist attacks).

People talking about the problem therefore becomes a double edged sword.

Mostly women were targeted

The deadly van attack in Toronto is shining a spotlight on the controversial, often misogynistic world of "incels."

The term incel is short for "involuntarily celibate," and the community that uses the label is typically dominated by men voicing frustration online about their lack of sexual relationships, sometimes blaming women for their failures with the opposite sex.

In the incel community, "Chad" is a name used as a stand-in for conventionally attractive men who always seem to succeed with women while "Stacys" are unattainable women who always turn them down.

A number of incel-related posts have idolized Elliot Rodger, a 22-year-old California man who killed six people and injured a dozen more during a deadly rampage in Isla Vista, Calif., in 2014.

www.cbc.ca/news/canada/what-is-an-incel-toronto-van-attack-explainer-alek-minassian-1.4633893

This guy has written an indepth thread on Twitter

twitter.com/ArshyMann/status/988818797086871558

One tweet - "Self-described incels today are almost entirely men who are laser-focused on their inability to have sex & blame women. Of the manosphere communities, incels are the most virulently misogynistic."

(FWIW this is why I believe that labelling these groups extremists and perhaps treating people who are members of such forums as members of an extremist group is perhaps needed. Particularly if we see more of these type of attacks. Toronto is already a copy cat crime - in both its motive and its method - so the idea that this won't happen again is incredibly naïve).

They can't just be lumped in with all the other misogynists and renamed, they need to be identified separately as they are now.

twitter.com/ArshyMann/status/988818797086871558

"Incel" refers to "involuntary celibate," essentially meaning that a person can't get laid because of their looks/personality. The incels make up one segment of the broader "manosphere", a collection of online masculinist communities that interplay with one another.

Incels differ in important ways from Men's Rights Activists. While both movements are misogynistic at their core, MRAs deploy a human rights framework to argue men are oppressed. Incels don't talk about rights, they just hate.

Incel language is often explicitly racist & they can be especially focused on interracial relationships. That element of racial panic is prominent in Elliot Rodger's manifesto.

I’ve never heard a genuinely decent man describe himself as a ‘nice guy.’
Ooh. Lightbulb moment. ..you're right!
I actually think most men are inherently fairly decent, but also, because unlike feminists they spend very little time thinking about inequality or sexual politics, they are prone to believing rubbish spouted by actual mysoginists ( eg divorced women getting everything). A lot of men beleive what other men tell them but disregard a lot of what women say.
There are some horrifying comments on that Twatter thread. Interesting how all the woman haters have declined to have an actual photo of themselves on their profile.

I hate Twitter, I really do. It's a haven for maladjusted angry losers, and I agree the more oxygen they get the more atrocities we will see.

I work with a nice guy (I wish I knew how to do that TM thing ).

He's great, gets it, totally understands our rants. He's buying a house right now with his DW who is a SAHP. His DM is putting some cash in as well. His DM will be on the deeds but not his DW! He didn't get why I thought that was awful. Even the good ones have privilege.

Incel language is often explicitly racist & they can be especially focused on interracial relationships. That element of racial panic is prominent in Elliot Rodger's manifesto.

YY.

Hello!
I often read this board but rarely post. However, I wanted to share this article, which I read yesterday, and was quite an eye-opener for me:

www.bodyforwife.com/incels-are-a-hate-group-promoting-rape-and-murder/

I'm in a headspace where I'm not really listening to news

if it wasn't for this forum, I would have no idea this was the reason for the attacks. But after looking online, it doesn't seem clear at all that this was what it was about....which makes me wonder if there are other people out there, watching TV news, and just assuming that other groups of people are to blame...is that possible or am I making a wrong guess?

www.vox.com/world/2018/4/25/17277496/incel-toronto-attack-alek-minassian
Incel, the misogynist ideology that inspired the deadly Toronto attack, explained

Alek Minassian, the man who killed 10 people by driving a van down a busy street in Toronto on Monday, is a terrorist.

We know this because he told us so. On Tuesday afternoon, Facebook confirmed the authenticity of a post in his name, in which he pledged allegiance to something called the “Incel Rebellion.” This is not an organized militant group but rather an ideal developed by the so-called “incel” movement — an online community of men united by their inability to convince women to have sex with them. (“Incel” stands for “involuntarily celibate.”)

Incel language is often explicitly racist & they can be especially focused on interracial relationships. That element of racial panic is prominent in Elliot Rodger's manifesto.

Yup, the panic is rooted in the loss of status of the white male. Women gaining equality, people of colour gaining equality, god forbid women of colour gaining equality. These things are what threaten their world view.
As such they are a splinter group of the alt right. However, I agree with pp that they are uniquely focusing their hatred on one main group, which is women, and that needs to be named and brought into the light.

Ooh. Lightbulb moment. ..you're right!
I actually think most men are inherently fairly decent,

I think most of the men I know are decent. But then that’s a selected sample and I’m pretty intolerant of arseholes generally regardless of sex.
So if I’ve been in ‘my’ world I tend to be a bit more rosy.
Then something will pop up in the mums group I’m on about how hideously someone’s husband is treating them, or I’ll cross paths with the awful brother of a very decent male friend of ours, or I’ll turn on the news... and reality hoves back into view.

I’ve found myself pointing these things out to dh, who is genuinely one of the good ones. And even he still doesn’t see how rage inducing the headlines like ‘rampage triggered by rejection’ are until I point it out. He only saw the carnage, which I guess isn’t a terrible fault

I think he’s getting it. But it’s shown me that my lived reality is worlds away from his. Which in itself is an eye opener.

www.alexa.com/siteinfo/avoiceformen.com

Not a small minority if only one website has this much traffic. FYI a huge drop off from their former stats due to increased competition from other misogynist sites.

I know bowl, the world is full of men who hate women. It's just hard to deal with sometimes, especially when, as you say, you only make time for the good ones.
And yes, even the good ones will never totally get it. My chap is decent. He would never describe himself as a nice guy (!), but has a pretty sound moral code etc.
The other evening it was lovely out, and ds and I decided to go for a little walk.DP was just in from work and was too knackered.
He said "OK, but...don't go through the woods will you?" I said we wouldnt.
Later I asked him if he could imagine what it was like to be restricted about where you can and cant walk, in your own locality, on a beautiful evening. (I did used to run through the woods, but I was fitter then and fancied my chances of escape better.)
He looked at me a bit blankly. Of course he doesnt understand. If he wanted to walk through the woods, he would just do it, without a fucking risk assessment or even a fleeting though for his own safety.
And I know that an MRA would likely tell me that if I were a young man I would be more likely to be attacked, and maybe so, but I would be a lot less likely to be raped and murdered in front of my child. And I know its unlikely, I do, but it's there all the time, the knowledge that there are some men who will attack and rape and maim and kill me because I am a woman and they are a man.
I feel like there was a brief moment around 1998 when men and women seemed to be kind of on the same page, and then the internet blew up..and now it feels like a war..[sigh].
Sorry. Rambling!

You don't see single women who are "incel" attacking men on the Internet and driving trucks at them do you

I think that these kinds of men have always existed.
I’m sure we can all think of someone we have known in the past at school etc that we have brushed off as being a bit odd.
The problem is that now they can all get together and conspire about the reasons that women won’t go near them and create this kind of group mind set.

You don't see single women who are "incel" attacking men on the Internet and driving trucks at them do you

No... on another thread, someone linked to Caitlin Moran www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/caitlin-moran-asked-women-what-14575426