“Incel”

[Scribblegirl]

Just come across this horrific phrase in the context of the Canadian attacks. I’ve always thought I was relatively aware but this completely passed me by.

Does anyone have any background resources they can share on the phrase/“movement”? Not sure I can face some of the murkier sites my first searches found.

What strikes me about that guardian interview with “Morpheus Manfred” is that this guy is getting first dates. So he is at least ok enough for women to meet him in the first place as a potential partner. The fact that all of them ‘flake’ doesn’t give him pause.

Obviously something about what he says or does makes them back off and I’m not surprised they don’t tell him why. But he assumes it’s their fault all of the time. He must be very red flaggy to put off all women after a first date.

See what he says about putting all this effort in but not getting a return. It’s like the see women as machines. You put some effort / attention in, get sex out. Not even human. Nothing about what’s in it for her.

"See what he says about putting all this effort in but not getting a return. It’s like the see women as machines. You put some effort / attention in, get sex out. Not even human. Nothing about what’s in it for her."

Yes it is sick. No wonder some men are excited the sex bots are coing

Thanks for the guardian link. Interesting that they included ‘terfs’ in the whole debate.

Reading that made it clear to me. The use of the term ‘feminist’ in TERF just goes to show how women hating it all is. If they were truly concerned with just trans rights then they would be as bothered by gay men who won’t sleep with trans men and by the men who don’t believe that trans men are men.

"But of course, they are not interested in their female counterparts, just some media generated image of what a girlfriend might be like"

This

Delighted to see Catherine Bennett on board, I was just going to post that link. Well done for joining up the dots, other commentators have real trouble with that.

However some men will and can and do hurt women in their desire for sex
I would suggest that they are acting out of a desire to dominate (so as to bolster their masculine status) and to vent anger and hatred as well as out of a desire for sex

irony in thinking that the answer to a lack of women willing to have sex with you is to kill women, so that there are even fewer women available
Indeed they're not thinking long term but reacting out of emotion.... the desire for revenge and retaliation, like a toddler screaming that it's not fair and lashing out

That's really fascinating Red especially regarding people who socialise mainly online blocking out anyone who doesn't toe the party line. A lot of young men have definitely become more "remote" in the way they socialise, and the ability to personalise all their entertainment (eg You Tube) means that they are rarely bothered with anything that doesn't chime with their world view.
I think this is a problem nowadays for a lot of groups. I know Labour voters who wouldn't speak to someone Tory, much less a UKIP voter. The tendency to demonise other groups can flourish when you don't have to interact with anyone "outside".
These hate nerds just seem to have stalled somewhere in the entitled outrage phase of a 14 year old, and, maybe because they never "go outside" they haven't gone through the normal development of self awareness that most people come to.

The tribalism and demonisation of ‘other’ groups is something I’ve noticed too. In politics it’s dreadful. When I hear (and I’m afraid the left do it more) things like Tory used as a term of abuse my heart sinks. I have never voted Tory but ffs they’re a mainstream political party, not some fringe loon right wing nazi job. If you can’t connect with someone who has a very slightly different, but still mainstream political viewpoint to yourself then you’re screwed.

I’m also homeless politically, more in the sense of having no one to bloody vote for than wanting to belong to a group. Recent labour misogyny and behaviour has left me thinking that actually none of the buggers have a manifesto I’m happy with. And I consider myself generally centrist but slightly left.

I’m not really a group person if I’m honest and your post is indeed very interesting because it flags up a few reasons why I feel that way. I find the narrowness of a lot of it off putting. I find he insistence on closeness and intimacy offputting. O find the thought policing offputting. I’ve never had a ‘group of besties’ and I’m wary of any group that claims to be Doing It All The Only Right Way.
I mean you even see this in parenting now - you can’t just give a baby food, IT MUST be BLW. You can’t just be nice to your kids it has to be attachment parenting.

It is like a bunch of cults and it’s a narrow way to live.

irony in thinking that the answer to a lack of women willing to have sex with you is to kill women, so that there are even fewer women available

I suppose it's at least in part due to envy, a dog in the manger attitude - if they can't have a 'stacey' they don't want a 'chad' to have her either. Punishing everyone else - but of course the women directly.

I also get very tired of groupthink and echo chambers. I've always had friends with whom I disagree about stuff and, even though we might get exasperated with each other and sometimes rule certain topics off-limits (temporarily or permanently) we still see each other as people not The Enemy, and we are still aware of each other's good points.

If relationships with people who we disagree with were off-limits I'd have to stop talking to certain family members on the basis that they're The Enemy, which would be a bit inconvenient (and would upset my dad, since they're mostly his family).

One of my all time favorite quotes in response to the friendzone complaints of self styled nice guys is "Women are not machines you put kindness coins in until sex falls out."

@AngryAttackKittens - I have certainly seen and heard stuff (usually among the tantrummy, just-discovered-politics type of young people) to the effect that you should cut off friends/family members etc if they say the wrong thing or hold the wrong opinion. Or if they 'patronize' you. Or if they don't consider your latest fad to be The Most Important Thing Ever (eg you've gone vegan and won't shut up about it, but they still eat meat...)

It's my least favorite youth trend ever! And does seem to be disturbingly common.

Back in my day we just dyed our hair black and whinged about our parents not understanding us. We didn't call them bigots and block them on Facebook.

(Partly because there wasn't Facebook yet, but still.)

Flipping heck, I would have blocked my Dad on Facebook, there's no way he would have been able to behave himself!
I'm personally very grateful that social media didn't happen til I was 26/27. God, the potential shame of being able to publish your opinions at 17

Interesting article comparing incels and jihadists

www.nytimes.com/2018/04/30/opinion/sex-shame-incels-jihadists-minassian.html

It is very interesting. Agree with almost all of it.

I’m struck by this sentence though:

According to Professor Juergensmeyer, “Nothing is more intimate than sexuality, and no greater humiliation can be experienced than failure over what one perceives to be one’s sexual role.”

That is quite a male viewpoint. Sex over everything.

Hmm. Women are often berated and shamed for 'failing in their sexual role', though. Women are frequently told they will be lonely and single and No Man Will Ever Want You for any kind of transgression or show of independence - and though a lot of women now react with cheerful satisfaction to the prospect, the fact remains that a lot of women have absorbed the idea that to be without a partner is to be a freak and a failure - look at the number of women who put up with all sorts of shitty behaviour from men rather than be single...

I don't think it is just a male pov.

Women who are unable to have children or choose not to have children are looked upon with pity and suspicion. There is a real social expectation which does affect women in different ways if they do not 'conform' and have children. Women who do have children but don't experience 'maternal feelings' in the way that society says they will also suffer and are distressed by the experience as if they have 'failed'. Also see childbirth and breastfeeding and the vocabulary and ideology of failure.

It manifests in a different way, but it is most definitely there.

Yes I’m not saying it’s not an issue, women definitely experience more sexual humiliation on average than men I’d be willing to bet....more that the author describes it as ‘the ultimate issue.’

More about how he has sex objectified as the single most important thing in a life. And yet there are millions of celibate (by choice and not) women out there just getting in with life.

This hatred is not new. École Polytechnique in 1989. You can trace it right through. The Dalhousie dentistry school scandal didn’t go as far, but was based on a similar ethos - males discussing the sexual merits of their female student counterparts online. For all of Canada’s nicey liberal image, it was dealing in misogyny, hatred, and violence against women way before internet porn and the incel rebellion. Same shit, different century. Misgender a man who self-IDs as a woman, though, and you get politicians calling for your prosecution and maligning you on a social media. Men’s feelings are more important than women’s physical safety.

The difference between men and women is that if women are single and not having sex, they think it's their fault. If men are single and not having sex, they think it's women's fault.

Re the cutting people off thing - did anyone else have the bloke berating a fellow vegan for buying an icecream from the icecream van for a child who didn't have money for one and was upset about it? He honestly thought that she deserved public calling out for it (see also that prom girl in the Chinese dress).

It's like stoning but with a broader audience.

Thing is, misogyny is thousands of years old. These 'incels' (or, as someone else called them, 'unfuckable hate nerds') are not actually peddling much that's new. There have always been men who insist that women are a kind of subhuman slave race. Remember that rape of a woman by her husband was not against the law until 1992.
We have made a lot of progress against male supremacy (and white supremacy), particularly in about the last 100 years, but the battle certainly isn't over yet, and probably won't be in my lifetime.

True SGB

This also made me go "yes!"

The difference between men and women is that if women are single and not having sex, they think it's their fault. If men are single and not having sex, they think it's women's fault.

Women turn humiliation and failure in on themselves (or sometimes their kids)men turn it outwards at women.