“Incel”

[Scribblegirl]

Just come across this horrific phrase in the context of the Canadian attacks. I’ve always thought I was relatively aware but this completely passed me by.

Does anyone have any background resources they can share on the phrase/“movement”? Not sure I can face some of the murkier sites my first searches found.

Really sorry if this has been covered

But do you get gay incels?

Im assuming its not a thing because I haven't heard of it

Well you do get gay men very upset because other gay men don't fancy them. I'm not sure why they do not date each other but I am guessing there is a beauty hierarchy much like in straight relationships. I've been told by gay men it is even greater on the gay male 'scene'. I have no idea if it is the same for lesbians.

But any group of people moaning because they don't get sex is in the wrong because no one is owed sex. It's not a human right.

@italiangreyhound that is exactly the kind of things that they say on their forums. The main one was deleted by reddit this week.

I think people have never heard of it because it hasn't affected them directly before. It's a fairly newish terminology and if you are over the age of 30 at the moment- unless you're a bit of an internet nerd- chances are that you won't have come across it or the people who use it openly.

To be honest I don't think anybody took them (incels) seriously prior to these attacks either and just assumed it was people spouting shite into the void.

@TrollTheRespawnJeremy what's that saying, when men tell you who they are, believe them!

@Ifnot... it's not confined to only white men as currycels show that this is spread throughout asian communities too.

One particular gripe is that of so-called 'race-traitors'. Asian women who prefer caucasian men and so leave 'currycels' womanless.

There's also the belief that caucasian women are not interested in minority ethnicity men. Most good looking black men or asian men are explained away as being 'whitewashed' as they conform to western ideals of beauty.

White men and women seem to be at the top of the hierarchy although it is acknowledged that particularly uglycels who are white have no chance. (Contradictory obviously.) Hispanic men are deemed most desirable after 'Chad's' (typical all american style attractive caucasian male.) A Tyrone is a 'Black Chad' who would stereotypically have a large penis.

It's not just misogynistic- it's inherently racist as well.

The alt-right use the sheer venom and desperation of these people as a recruiting tactic - promising to try and curb immigration etc and thus making the chance of 'race-traitorism' less likely.

I know that usually I am among my people on MN... but on the offchance that anyone is going to be riled by what I have written above- this is ENTIRELY NOT MY VIEWPOINT. I am merely attempting to fill in the blanks for people to show them what we are up against.

@rufustheconstantreindeer

It is generally believed that there is no such thing as gay incels as if you are willing to allow your body to be used for sex (as a woman would) then you are likely to find a hookup although no long term relationship prospects.

It is acknowledged that gay men can be very shallow, but ultimately men will shag anything.

It is debated within the community a bit but that is the general consensus.

Troll my mind is blown by that information. Some people have way too much time on their hands and need hobbies and to interact with people in real life and form proper relationships. Sitting at computers ranting about "cels" seems very unhealthy.

Don't let's be too quick to blame it all on porn, when the US is crawling with rightwing Jeezus-jumpers whose attitude to women is every bit as toxic.
The ones who are trying to pass ever more restrictive laws on access to abortion and contraception, for instance. Several of them are equally enthusiastic about making it harder to get rapists convicted (at least one forced birther tried to change the law on sexual assault so that the word 'victim' was replaced throughout with 'accuser'...) All those republicans pursuing underage girls. All those proposals to criminalise drinking of alcohol and prohibit certain jobs to women of childbearing age in case they might be pregnant.
Sure, misogyny is a worldwide problem, but it's particularly virulent in the US.

I think the sheer size of the US and it's population can skew our understanding of where incels are based. Certainly I'd argue that it seems to be easier to be radicalised in the US (judging by the terrible statistics on school assaults.)

There is 100% an incel contingent in the UK as a hierarchy of regions of women and the likelihood of them allowing you to have sex with them was bandied around fairly recently. (It was extremely Classist. I am sure you can imagine exactly what was said. It was not particularly imaginative.)

I think Porn is a factor but one of many. At the end of the day these are disenfranchised young men who are prime targets for right wing rhetoric.

Although they consider themselves superior by having recognised the (make-believe)conspiracy that is ruling the world of sexual politics- they clearly don't seem to understand how prone to manipulation they are.

Wow that's really informative, thank you troll. I guess it isn't just white men then.
Its not just porn SGB but it can't help, can it?
If you are a happily married man with a social life, and you look at porn once in a while, you can keep it in perspective, but for a shy young guy who is a virgin it has got to be having a weird effect on how he thinks of women.

Hi, I'm new here (well, I'm mainly a lurker, but read the feminism board daily nowadays) and don't want to derail - especially if this has been said before in the past - but one of the Twitter links upthread led me to this article that I found interesting, about a link between masculinity, 4chan, anime and how it might lead some young men into feeling like they might be trans: medium.com/@rftbk/masculinity-anime-and-gender-dysphoria-8d682abcec54

20 years ago I briefly had a housemate who was absolutely an 'incel' before the term was coined. He was so depressed and angry that women weren't interested in him. He used to write long letters to his GP and social worker, complaining that sex workers weren't provided for free on the NHS/by the council for people like him

He was utterly grim, no conversation beyond whining about being a virgin, full of scorn for 'normal' people, never washed, lived on junk food, didn't brush his teeth... He would never accept that if he made an effort to talk to women like they were human beings instead of reviled sex objects, he may have had an easier time finding a girlfriend. He took an overdose and left a long letter blaming evil women, the NHS and social services for his suicide attempt.

I felt awful but I was also very glad when he was evicted for not paying his rent (as he wasn't planning on being alive). I see him around occasionally, he still seems just the same but is middle aged now. I have no doubt he is on incel websites as he posted on similar newsgroups back in the 90s.

Thanks italian and troll

Oh I absolutely agree with you SGB on the toxic atmosphere around reproductive rights for women in the USA - that political bent uses a pro life stance to punish women. If they were truly pro life they’d be fully funding programs that make sure that all children have a good start when born. But they don’t - it’s reproductive control, pure and simple.

Still stand by my opinions on porn though - I think it’s all tentacles of the same monster - women as possessions/sub human/to be punished. It’s all linked. If there was truly respect for women then porn would predominantly show mutual pleasure not abuse.

Anyone want to go a bit cross eyed over 4chan views of the world and politics?

Incels are 'black pill' ideologists. Elliot Rodger used the term himself.

Its a development of the concept of red pill, blue pill from the matrix.

historiesofthingstocome.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/red-pill-blue-pill-green-pill-black-pill.html?m=1
Red Pill, Blue Pill, Green Pill, Black Pill

This will make you go somewhat cross eyed in its explanation.

I'd say its got a point about how the world is being manipulated through online means (its a complex description of the use of propaganda really).

Its point is that incels as black pillers acknowledge themselves as losers but take no responsibility for it, and instead lash out at the world. They are proud to be losers. Being a victim or loser is central to their identity and their politics.

At some points in this, I found myself scratching my head, but if you can get your head around it, I think its worth doing so. It does a lot to explain current political patterns. I do however say, this isn't a new thing; rather just a new way of explaining a problem with extensive use of propaganda in society which tends to arise in authoritarian political climates. Its a result of political fractures and rising unrest. But this article puts it into is the language of the internet and its culture.

Incels tend not to be in favour of porn, though. (If they had a wank a day, they'd be happier.)
Also, there is steady growth of indie/ethical porn (the definition of ethical porn is that performers are properly paid and everything is pre-agreed), a lot of which shows negotiation and mutual enjoyment. The horrific misogyny of the incel/MRA/PUA dicks has more in common with religious misogyny than porn: it's all about ownership of women and removal of their human rights.

SGB there 100% is ethical porn out there but I don't think that's necessarily the issue.

These men have completely unrealistic expectation of women that they have gleaned from online forums. Women as playthings. Women as non-sentient beings who are only there for mens pleasure etc. I think that a lot of porn plays into that.

I don't necessarily think that most porn is harmful to adults who are emotionally balanced and haven't learned about the magical dick growing powers of female virginity from 4chan. The reality is that porn is harmful to kids- ethical or not- but it's too easy for them to get their hands on and base their weird opinions on it.

This is a screenshot taken from incels...

You cannot tell me that this has nothing to do with porn.

Well I'm in despair this morning following messages I've seen from friends on social media railing against the 'injustice' of Bill Cosby's conviction. This is a man who admitted purchasing sedatives with the aim of subduing women.

They are on a continuum with the men when I was a young woman who convinced girls that it was physically dangerous for men not to have regular sex.

I am always very wary of porn apologists. Particularly women porn apologists.

There is ethical porn out there, but it’s a tiny minority of what’s on offer. Again if you go to the landing page of any of the main tube sites you’re not seeing consensual erotica - the vast majority of it is abuse dominated.

And don’t forget that all the search algorithms and ‘what’s on the front page’ algorithms work on popularity - what’s popular is what’s front and centre and that reinforces itself.

The market for ethical porn is a tiny slice. What you see on those landing pages is what people are looking for. And it’s 99% dominance, choking, dp, rape simulation, and abuse.

Again I dont doubt that there is a small slice of the market that’s totally ethical and consensual. But most of it isn't, and that stuff is what teens are exposed to before they have the maturity of mind to understand how damaging it is.

It normalises abuse. A whole generations first visual exposure to sex is abusive. It’s reinforced by the narrowing of female gender stereotypes (long swishy hair and specific makeup and clothes are about al that’s tolerated for girls these days) by pop culture, by advertising. I mean good god by the behaviour of public figures up to and including the leader of the free world who openly admits to grabbing them by the pussy.

All this is linked. It’s all manifestations of the same underlying switch back to a highly gendered society where he men are in charge and the women are attractive fucktoys who do what they’re told.

It is a deeply worrying time to be a woman.

For people on Twitter, @HadleyFreeman is, as ever, solid as a rock on this. An example-

“No, it's a name that perpetuates the idea that if a woman shagged them then their anger wouldn't exist. It's bullshit. Call them, as per Maron, unfuckable hate nerds. Don't call them by the name with which they find each other online or one that wrongly diagnoses their problem.”

Bowl that is an excellent post and puts into words exactly as I feel.

At the risk of sounding like Mary Whitehouse (who actually had a point) I think our children are being corrupted. Properly corrupted - by porn. These impulses and the dark side of sexuality were always there of course but now they are encouraged and kids are exposed to them far far far too young before they have formed their own sexual selves and the tentacles of this are creeping out to affect all of us.

So young women minding their own business walking down a road in one of the safest cities in the world are murdered. I don't know how anyone who produces or promotes porn can sleep at night. I couldn't.

Great post babel
I used to be fine with porn but I am getting more and more convinced it is at the root of the backlash against women now.

A lot if what is out there is degrading and violent. And not at all about pleasure, in fact it seems to be about women's pain.

It's not ok, it's misogynistic in the extreme yet we can't talk about how to put structures in place to protect society from the damaging effects of it because we end up in this binary "porn is good/bad" debate.

Meanwhile men get to watch the abuse of women in an unfettered normalised way.