Max testosterone level for trans athletes to be halved

[EmpressOfJurisfiction]

Open access link: www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-athletes-face-tougher-entry-rules-in-female-events-wrrmm7vcz?shareToken=49299dde905a975d619c3b6b581b4b38

I always wonder if male muscle tissue responds to the same amount of testosterone in a way that would advantage a man even with all other things being equal. Has this been studied?

There has already been studies about the efficacy of trans women on hrt vs cis standards, generally if people were more aware of the actual issue instead of just plainly trying to say no trans women should be involved.

Some power events give trans women a distinct disadvantage such as the 100m, probably because of reduced muscle mass tendon/ligament strength pushing an otherwise male skeleton.

Where as the shot putt gives trans women an advantage but javelin a disadvantage,its not so clear cut, I have attached an image of preliminary findings averaged out, less than 1% either way is dismissed due to is being based on averages

crispbuttyfan Really interesting post. I haven't seen those studies before.

Inclusion policies in sport (as in all areas) for people who are transgender are vital BUT in order for sport to remain inclusive, there must also be consideration and impact awareness on how such policies might affect some women and girls.
To ask questions about this is not transphobic.
There are some conflicting rights and there is a desperate need for these to be able to be discussed with both nuance and debate.

Further discussion by Delia Johnson about sporting policies:
metro.co.uk/2015/10/21/transgender-woman-on-her-desperate-struggle-with-her-new-identity-and-how-she-was-accepted-by-the-fa-but-not-her-daughter-5376352/

crispbuttyfan what study is that, where is it published and how many athletes studied? Do you have a link?

2whatever physical advantages transgender athletes have, they are not nearly as large as the sociological disadvantages"

What sociological diadvantages are there to being raised a boy in regards to sport?

A "TERF in disguise"?

What exactly does a "TERF" look like, let alone a disguised one?!

I'm beginning to wonder if some people really do see "TERFs" as sincerely horrifying, terrifying demonic/terrorist figures who would usually "look" a certain way? Do they really imagine packs of savage, rabid women out there ready to stab them to death or something?

Arguably whether transwomen/men have advantages or disadvantages, either way they're not competing on a level field. There should be more categories.

So are the IOC also acknowledging that without the suppression of testosterone (to a greater degree than previously claimed) trans gender women may have an unfair physical advantage due to nature of male biology?

this being the case then...
Several other major marathons said they have no official policies but are taking a similar approach to Boston. Organizers of the Chicago, New York City, London and Los Angeles marathons all said they honor the gender that runners submit during sign-ups.
"We want to be inclusive and sensitive to all of our participants," said Carey Pinkowski, Chicago Marathon executive race director. "At this point, we don't feel that we need to require legal or medical records or anything along those lines."
But there's still a wrinkle: Many races, including Boston, New York and Chicago, require runners to show IDs with the same names and genders as their application forms, which can be an obstacle for trans athletes who haven't legally changed their personal information. Race officials said they haven't fielded complaints but will monitor their policies to make sure they're inclusive.
In elite competition, debate has mostly focused on transgender women, who typically require surgery or medication to lower their testosterone levels. Olympic officials issued new rules in 2016 saying trans women can compete if their testosterone levels stay beneath a certain limit, and many professional races now follow similar rules."
In response to the March blog post, some commenters said transgender women have an unfair physical advantage and shouldn't bump other women from qualifying.

Stevie Romer, a transgender woman from Woodstock, Illinois, says she registered for Boston as a woman because that's what she is. Although she hasn't done anything to lower her testosterone levels, Romer legally changed her gender, grew her hair out and started living openly as a woman more than a year ago.

"To be able to experience it as me was really, really important," she said. "I've been a runner since as long as I can remember. I love running, but I just happen to be transgender."

abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/boston-marathons-trans-women-compete-women-54320495

What exactly does a "TERF" look like, let alone a disguised one?!
I'm beginning to wonder if some people really do see "TERFs" as sincerely horrifying, terrifying demonic/terrorist figures who would usually "look" a certain way? Do they really imagine packs of savage, rabid women out there ready to stab them to death or something?

Yes this view is held...
recommended resource from an NUS Women's 18 presentation
theterfs.com
"TERF Position on Trans Equality
For decades, TERFs have sought to legislate trans people out of existence. Moreover, they work to oppose trans equality measures, infiltrate trans-inclusive feminist spaces, work with anti-gay groups to target trans kids and collaborate with anti-trans extremists who advocate bombing US targets."

I'm beginning to wonder if some people really do see "TERFs" as sincerely horrifying, terrifying demonic/terrorist figures who would usually "look" a certain way? Do they really imagine packs of savage, rabid women out there ready to stab them to death or something?

It’s almost sounds like a... literal phobia.

My bottom line is that biological males should not be allowed to compete against biological females in sports. This is one of the areas where it is very easy to determine and therefore monitor.

terfobia (sp)?
I suspect, more likely, misogyny.

Terfphobia should definitely be a word!

I'm so cross at that definition from the NUS.

As an autistic person these things matter, and since a lot of trans people are apparently on the spectrum, they may be more vulnerable to this nonsense.

Look, I don't doubt that some people in the world would like to bomb trans people; there are some people ready to kill, bomb, murder out of any number of reasons. There are clearly issues with domestic abuse. On a daily basis there must be some real vitriolic knee jerk homophobic disgust out there too when you "look" a certain way and that must be horrible to encounter. There are definitely threats out there (to all of us, all the time).

But focusing on some imaginary bad guys and giving them a weird label doesn't help with that, it makes more people turn against you as you demonise them for asking logical questions.

Refusing to ask those questions (ironically) really does make someone more vulnerable to the real threats around them which could include damaging bodies and fertility, mental health, as well as disrupting their friendships and relationships, personal growth and career opportunities with this sort of black-and-white "you're one of us without question or you're the antichrist" thinking.

Nope, fear of TERF literal violence is pure fantasy irrational, in that it’s not reality-related, so I’d say phobic.

Anyone would think Bindel, Bellos, Brunskell-Evans and Jeffreys were running around Clockwork Orange-style the way these tantrummers carry on.

This is bollocks.

There is NO possible allowable level of testosterone for transitioned athletes, since the likes of Laurel Hubbard in female terms doped for 37 years before reducing testosterone.

So the question of 10, 5 1, 0.1 is invalid and it doesn't really make a difference.

If you have ever been a male you have no place in elite female sport, end of study. You might as well let Usain Bolt compete but say he has to hop, or have a hand tied his back or something, it's by definition nonsensical.

@Mogleflop
This is not an NUS position but refers to a workshop at NUS Women's 18
The discussion about the slideshow on this forum was connected to EH's condemnation of Mumsnet for transphobia.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3222263-Slide-show-on-How-to-Deal-with-TERFs

This is welcome news. But as we all know, save for certain sports such as equestrian, it is simply not fair &/or safe for males to compete with/against females. But it is a step in the right direction.

apologies... link to my post at 9.39 was incorrect.
Discussion about self id at Boston marathon raised here:

What does a TERF look like?

I reckon that they have visions of them looking like the witches in the Disney (?) film of Roald Dahl's The Witches... And that when the doors shut, they peel off their normal everyday normal woman that you would recognise as a neighbour/shop assistant/school mum/etc in order to show their true demonic terfy-ness

It's a non-change, it's still defining female to be "low testosterone" for the purposes of sport ignoring all other physiological differences and they still only have to claim to be a woman for four years for sporting purposes. So I suppose they think this sop will stop the criticisms, but it will not. There is a very clear 10% to 40% difference between male and female athletes depending on the sport and it is only sports like gymnastics or something like shooting or equestrian where it evens out because that is based on skill. It's still many more times than even a woman with an endocrine disorder would have, and still set up to advantage these men.

"There has already been studies about the efficacy of trans women on hrt vs cis standards, generally if people were more aware of the actual issue instead of just plainly trying to say no trans women should be involved."

The actual issue is they are male and don't lose that and the claims of power loss are dubious. There is no link to this chart, but I doubt it is a comparison against women or even other men as any so-called studies or claims I've read only look at pre- or post- transition (so the athlete compared with themselves) and don't account for age related declines in performance. The tiny changes in the main are not convincing at all, and as we know in weightlifting, the trans person can be 10-15 years older and at a stage where other male athletes would have moved on into Masters or other age-graded levels but still is winning against women and removing their chances to excel at their chosen sport. That tells it's own story.

What does a TERF look like?

I can't speak for all TERFs but I look like a supermodel.

You do all realise that the decision to lower testosterone levels is to stop women like Caster Semenyu competing without having her (natural due to a condition) level lowered.

It's not to stop men competing. Because trans men can get their levels below 5, and still have male anatomy, male muscles, male skeleton, male height and weight and strength.

The only correct conclusion to this bollocks is to stop measuring testosterone at all (except as part of the normal drug testing for cheating) and go back to saying women have to be genetically women (an easy test these days) to compete in women's events.

It's a load of shite to make people shut up about it.

The reaction to the recent weightlifting debacle was telling and I assume this is to appease that backlash.

I think by so many being able to see such an obvious example of unfairness widely televised it opened many eyes. No matter the words spoken, everyone could see the truth and began to question why this was allowed to happen.

Actually what Reddwolff said.

If they go ahead with this I presume men with naturally low testosterone levels, or who are willing to take testosterone suppressors (however they work) are going to be allowed to compete in women's events, even if they don't "identify" as women.

After all, the division is no longer "men" and "women", it's "less than 5" and "more than 5".