'Passing' trans

[SavetheVees]

Namechanged due to ~controversy~

I understand the anti self-ID issue. However, what I don't understand is how single-sex spaces can be policed by appearances alone? I have seen many threads where people speak about 'male bodies' - which is clear in the case of trans people who haven't actually made any effort to transition (incredibly rare in my experience - of course there are high profile examples)

This just really confuses me because I know quite a few trans people, including being a vague acquaintance to Tara Wood (I don't condone her actions so lets not go there), and in many cases, especially where hormones and surgery are involved, it is not really possible to tell they are trans. I first met Tara before she 'came out' as trans and the first time I saw her after the transition, I failed to realise it was the same person I had met before, and thought she was absolutely stunning. I was actually a bit envious of how effortlessly feminine she looked. I also know 'butch' presenting women, who despite being biologically female, are not feminine in the stereotypical-appearance way, and are often mistaken as men. I ALSO know women who have PCOS etc etc and have facial hair, who would be mortified to be accused of being biologically male when accessing single-sex spaces, even though they have a characteristic perceived to be 'male'.

So how would this be managed and policed? If you saw someone you knew to be trans accessing a women's changing room, despite them 'passing' as female visually - would you challenge them? What if someone was truly androgynous - would you challenge them? Would you expect someone else to? Surely there is no way on earth that we should be mandated to carry ID cards with details of our genitalia printed on them, or even worse expected to flash our privates at a changing room attendant in order to gain entry?! These sound far, far more intrusive and offensive to me than having a wee in a cubicle next to someone with a penis.

just to reiterate - I completely understand the ideological values of single sex spaces etc and protecting women from violent and voyeuristic men, however I struggle to understand how these spaces can be policed to avoid "be-penised" bodies without 1) being ineffective and 2) not offending biological vagina-owners who do not fit feminine stereotypes as effectively as trans folk do

[Threewheeler1]

For me the issue is the removal of safeguards that are in place to protect women and children from deviant men.
As a social worker I witnessed the lengths some men would go to to gain access to women & kids.
Who will be able to challenge these men (and I'm talking about men who commit both opportunistic and premeditated offences) when they enter womens spaces with apparent impunity?
Would a lone female in a changing room, my 13 year old niece, my kids 12 year old friends? Doubt it.
The safeguards exist for a reason. They offer some protection from the worst case scenario happening (and it still happens all too frequently and more often that recorded).
Stating that women have an issue with trans rights is a lazy red herring.
What about the very real and ongoing experiences of females who experience abuse, harassment and violence? Why are they no longer important when it come to the threat of abuse, harassment and violence that trans women say they experience?
Allowing men to access womens spaces puts both women and trans women at risk.

[SpareRibFem]

What @kneedeepinunicorns said

I don't care what anyone looks like. If you're female working in a male environment you will be misgendered occasionally, I have, I laugh and get on with my life.

I'm concerned about risk of male violence and boundaries.

For example, I don't care what TW looks like, TW has already attacked a much older, smaller woman who did not agree with TW, TW has a bigger physique and is stronger than most women. I do not want to be sharing women only space with TW

[Ereshkigal]

@Teacuphiccup that's exactly why I'm confused by some of the threads/comments I see on mumsnet saying that people have a responsibility to look a certain way to access certain spaces. I genuinely believe there is no way of telling whats in someone's underwear with 100% certainly, just at a glance

They don't have a "responsibility to look a certain way". The point for me is that trans identified males should stay out of women's spaces if they respect women and our privacy and dignity. If they "pass" then they can get away with it deceitfully as we can't tell. If they don't then they can't. It's really that simple.

[BarrackerBarmer]

These threads are near impossible to discuss honestly for fear of deletions and accusations of meanness. One cannot truthfully say of a particular individual - oh well, they look 100% man to me and come out of this well.

I can only say that every famous transperson I could name right now doesn't pass, in my opinion. That there is so much more to this than visual presentation.
Gait, gestures, movement, body language, voice, intonation, behaviour...all provide enormous 'tells', even of the best passing individual.

Wrt the butch female? A few years ago my response would have been, huh, unusually tall woman, or perhaps more facial hair. But my trust would still have been there, and I would have suspended any disbelief. Now, that trust is irrevocably broken, because I no longer have the expectation that there will be an honour system respecting that toilets are segregated by sex, not gender. I am primed and more alert to the very real possibility that male people will use female space.
It actually makes me very angry that men have eroded women's trust to the extent that we are now possibly suspicious of masculine women, who deserve to be in the women's space, in a way we would not have been previously. But I can still tell the difference between the sexes.

Women's spaces are for females, masculine or feminine is irrelevant.
Same sex body? Same sex space.

I think women are better than men at accurately perceiving sex and seeing past artifice like makeup and clothing and caricatured twirly hair mannerisms. I suspect it is because our safety depends upon getting it right, and we are already more familiar with what women are and what lies beneath the artifice of makeup.

[Teacuphiccup]

I have a sneaky suspicion that this thread has been set up for us to state how much certain trans people don’t pass for the old screeny grabby.

[BarrackerBarmer]

I thought the same Teacup

[SpareRibFem]

@BarrackerBarmer makes a good point, whether someone 'passes' is only of interest to us because if they are female we don't have to worry so actually those that are more obvious visually are in some ways less of a worry. It is also mannerisms and body language that give cues on maleness and particularly aggression and we are always alert to those. Dressing that person up in a nice frock, good makeup, hair and feminised features is irrelevant to how comfortable we might feel.

[NotTerfNorCis]

Transwomen are men who identify as women. It doesn't matter whether they 'pass' or not - that is the basic reality.

So then the question in every scenario is whether it's a good/neutral thing for a man to be there. In the case of women's prisons and sports, it clearly isn't. Likewise jobs, scholarships etc that were set aside for women. But on the other hand, if a man who identifies as a woman and has gone to a lot of effort - he's not just some chancer who's trying it on - then there's no problem with him using the women's loos.

[TeaScum]

I've yet to meet a person who can't tell within the first few moments of looking at someone whether they are a man or a woman.

In real life that is, not in pictures thanks to all the filters and clever angling etc.

Butch women are still unmistakably women, very feminine men are still unmistakably men.

But I agree with pp that this looks like an attempt to get everyone to say, ' You what? You call that feminine?' so it would make a nice screengrab to showcase on twitter about how evil all the mumsnetters are.

[thebewilderness]

Transgender identified males complain constantly on the internet about getting the side eye or open stares from women when they go into the loo.
That is when they discover that their belief that they "pass" is false.

[Ohforfoxsakereturns]

There have been a few threads recently I’ve thought we’re set ups. The three year old boy who wanted to be a girl, and should she go to the GP? For one.

[Springnowplease]

I disagree with this entirely, as I said I know quite a few trans people and only a few of them don't entirely "pass" in my experience. I am in my twenties though and think it's easier at this age than people transitioning later in life. If your only experience is seeing the occasional non-passing trans person in the street I see how you might think this

It's obvious to me when someone is trans. I don't understand how people can't tell. Height, way of walking, body shape, Adam's apple, large hands and feet and the voice all are "male". Even post-op transwomen have a non-woman look that is obvious.

[Teacuphiccup]

If your only experience is seeing the occasional non-passing trans person in the street I see how you might think this


Why why oh why do people just assume that people on Mumsnet don’t know any trans people? Do they think that we only have gender critical views out of ignorance and if we just met a few trans people we’d change our minds?

[Idontdowindows]

Why why oh why do people just assume that people on Mumsnet don’t know any trans people?

I know, it's the arrogance of the young I think. They believe they're the only ones that know something.

I would wager I've met more post-op transsexual males than the OP can imagine. Not transgender. TransSEXUAL.

[PhantomSelf]

Yeah @Teacuphiccup and
@Ohforfoxsakereturns noticed another one on unpeak trans (or was it trans unpeak) thread.

[Trousersdontmakemeaman]

Yikes, my neighbour of 28 years. Flippin heck. But yeah, I need a young person to explain shit to me.

[Trousersdontmakemeaman]

BarrackerBarmer

I got deleted for mentioning a film about a stuffed toy. I will not be mentioning the film again.

[Voice0fReason]

Also like I said this isn't really to do with self ID but to do with policing single sex spaces fairly and effectively
It's EVERYTHING to do with self-id!
If someone who is clearly a man (not a butch lesbian) is in a female only area, I want to have the right to demand that he leave. I don't want to be told that he has the legal right to stay there because he identifies as a woman.

Gender stereotypes are harmful for everyone. Men and women should be free to express themselves however they want to, without risk of persecution or ridicule.

This works under the current laws. It's the notion of any man being able to legally identify as a woman any day they want to - that's the problem.
This has never been an anti-trans issue.

[AnotherQuoll]

In fact , OP, women probably have better ability to distinguish male from female not inly in real.life but also by their writing style, for example, online. Certain ways of speaking, attitudes to women, lesbians.. We often detect when, for example, a male is setting us up.

[MadBadDaddy]

I don't think that's what anyone is saying here.

[AnotherQuoll]

Then you don't agree with us at all, supergrammama but that won't make the screenshot will it?

[DarthArts]

@supergrammama

Reported.

[TripleRainbow]

*supergrammama
*
Awful comment. Hopefully MN will ban you.

[TotallyLibrarianPoo]

Super is having a busy night, they even took the piss out of my name on another thread. Not sure how it would make a good screen grab though