'Passing' trans

[SavetheVees]

Namechanged due to ~controversy~

I understand the anti self-ID issue. However, what I don't understand is how single-sex spaces can be policed by appearances alone? I have seen many threads where people speak about 'male bodies' - which is clear in the case of trans people who haven't actually made any effort to transition (incredibly rare in my experience - of course there are high profile examples)

This just really confuses me because I know quite a few trans people, including being a vague acquaintance to Tara Wood (I don't condone her actions so lets not go there), and in many cases, especially where hormones and surgery are involved, it is not really possible to tell they are trans. I first met Tara before she 'came out' as trans and the first time I saw her after the transition, I failed to realise it was the same person I had met before, and thought she was absolutely stunning. I was actually a bit envious of how effortlessly feminine she looked. I also know 'butch' presenting women, who despite being biologically female, are not feminine in the stereotypical-appearance way, and are often mistaken as men. I ALSO know women who have PCOS etc etc and have facial hair, who would be mortified to be accused of being biologically male when accessing single-sex spaces, even though they have a characteristic perceived to be 'male'.

So how would this be managed and policed? If you saw someone you knew to be trans accessing a women's changing room, despite them 'passing' as female visually - would you challenge them? What if someone was truly androgynous - would you challenge them? Would you expect someone else to? Surely there is no way on earth that we should be mandated to carry ID cards with details of our genitalia printed on them, or even worse expected to flash our privates at a changing room attendant in order to gain entry?! These sound far, far more intrusive and offensive to me than having a wee in a cubicle next to someone with a penis.

just to reiterate - I completely understand the ideological values of single sex spaces etc and protecting women from violent and voyeuristic men, however I struggle to understand how these spaces can be policed to avoid "be-penised" bodies without 1) being ineffective and 2) not offending biological vagina-owners who do not fit feminine stereotypes as effectively as trans folk do

[Teacuphiccup]

But the point isn’t policing what people wear or saying ‘you’re feminine enough to be in here’ it’s about women retaining the right to throw Males out of female only spaces if they are behaving in a way that is inappropriate or making people feel uncomfortable.

If self id goes through we lose the right to challenge any Male in any female space.

It’s not about ‘oh you’re not wearing a dress so you have to leave’

[TallulahWaitingInTheRain]

We go by how people look precisely so we don't have to subject anyone to a genital inspection. It's a good measure because it's almost always correct without being in the least intrusive.

[spontaneousgiventime]

Ok so let’s pretend there’s a woman who is so masculine people would mistake her for being Male.

Just speak to her. Transwomen has a hell of a tough time sounding female, that gives many away who look feminine.

[SavetheVees]

I think it doesn't help that I was recently asked if I was trans by someone who thought they were being sensitive. I'm not - I'm just not very pretty [Grin]

Clearly people do make these mistakes, and how that is meant to be managed without being offensive

[Speedy85]

For example this couple - knowing they are trans you can pull out features that make sense of that, but if I met either of them without this knowledge I would definitely not jump to the conclusion that they are trans.

Again, I disagree and I hate to make it personal but the transwoman in the link looks instantly like someone who is of the male sex to me. I know you will say that is because the website says that they are trans, but it's genuinely not. It's just one of those things that people can see.

To be fair, I'm not very good at telling transmen who have had testosterone apart from biological men though (other than some obvious features like they tend to be shorter). I think that this really speaks to the incredibly powerful effect of testosterone. It's also I think why it's so hard for transwomen to pass, because it's so hard to hide the effects of testosterone after exposure.

I still think the best answer would be a third unisex space for anyone who, for whatever reason, feels uncomfortable with using single sex spaces that match with their biology.

If transmen want to use male-only spaces then this won't normally pose the same issues as biological males in female-only spaces. We have segregated spaces (prisons etc) because women need protection from men. If transmen opt for a male prison, they are only putting themselves at risk.

[UpstartCrow]

A genuine rights movement would work like this;

Deal with the main reason women need sex segregated services (male violence).
Create a third unisex space.
Show women how safe they are.
Gradually as time passes, with each new generation, the unisex version becomes the norm for most people.

See how that works? Its a humane process of incremental changes, instead of demanding immediate acquiescence and obedience.

[Teacuphiccup]

Yes but you were probably asked if you were trans because it’s a total minefield now and people are so worried about accidentally misgendering someone that they panic when they see a gender non conforming person as there is literally no way to know if that person is a trans man or a lesbian without asking and asking is SO RUDE as you’re not supposed to notice these things.

[OlennasWimple]

It's not about make up and hair (facial or otherwise)

We can clock who is a man and who is a woman by a whole host of visual and non-visual cues. Size of hands and feet , Adam's apple, different gait, voice, jaw line....

Many transwomen pass in photos (particularly promotional pictures), but as soon as you see them on TV you know that they are not women. Same when you meet them in the street / toilet / work place: it might not be immediately apparent, but it is almost always possible to tell.

Sorry, I know that's not what most transmen and transwomen want to hear, but we do know. We are generally too polite to mention it, especially as in most cases it's also utterly irrelevant. But don't take "no-one commented" to mean the same as "no-one knew"

[SavetheVees]

retaining the right to throw Males out of female only spaces if they are behaving in a way that is inappropriate or making people feel uncomfortable

Of course if anyone is inappropriate they should be removed. But the PP whose ex-girlfriend was asked to leave the ladies toilet due to being tall and butch - I do think the problem is with the women who took offence without the ex-gf doing anything wrong


We go by how people look

I do have an issue with this - no one should have to dress a certain way to feel safe

[Mistigri]

you might just be much worse at telling whose sex is male/female compared to most people? If others can tell easily even if you cannot then can you see why people might be unhappy?

That's pretty condescending, no? I've been having piano lessons for nearly a year with someone who I think is probably trans, I don't know for sure. Presents as somewhere in between (feminine mannerisms but doesn't wear stereotypically "female" clothes) and that's fine with me. The only pronoun I have ever needed is "you".

I don't disagree with what's been said about the "honour system" but I hate the idea that someone who was looking for a fight about fucking toilets could pick on my piano teacher :(

[Xenophile]

No one has the right not to be offended.

I was extremely androgynous when I was a twenty-something, must be because I was heavily involved in the alternative/LGB scene then, but when asked if I was female, I simply said "yes".

I didn't set out to be androgynous, I just was and maybe it pissed me off sometimes, but then I also understood that women need to feel safe in spaces where they might be vulnerable.

Plus I'm not a selfish fucker who thinks that validating my feelings trump everyone's right to safety.

[Teacuphiccup]

But all the ex girlfriend had to do was say ‘I’m a woman’ and I’m sure the woman would have been mortified.

[TallulahWaitingInTheRain]

no one should have to dress a certain way to feel safe

We go by whether people look male or female, not what they are wearing. Many physical tells as pp described, their voice, the way they move. Nothing to do with their gender expression, or 'passing' wouldn't even be a thing.

[Teacuphiccup]

Why are people fighting your piano teacher in toilets?

[busyboysmum]

In my opinion it only really matters in places where identity can be effectively assessed such as sports prisons domestic violence shelters and so on. If a passing trans person wants to use a toilet in peace that's absolutely fine. However I don't want the situation to come around where men who clearly look like men are allowed to use the ladies toilets without being challenged. If someone is challenged and is in fact male need to be able to remove them from the situation

[Xenophile]

And knowing who is male and who is female has nothing to do with how they dress. Women are trained, from birth, to be consonantly aware of where men are. This isn't based on whether they're wearing trousers or a skirt, but on various psychological cues. This is why trans women never pass, even when they are really quite feminine in presentation.

If men weren't so bloody dangerous to women, then we wouldn't need to be socialised in this way and everyone would no doubt be a lot happier.

[Xenophile]

And what busyboysmum said.

[SavetheVees]

I look far more masculine than Hannah from the link - she has lovely eyes, smile and shoulders. And I am a feminine-presenting, biological female with big feet and hands

[Mistigri]

But all the ex girlfriend had to do was say ‘I’m a woman’ and I’m sure the woman would have been mortified.

Why should she have to? What sort of "feminism" is this that demands that women "present as women" or risk being confronted when entering a public loo? Why should she have to defend how she looks to a stranger?

[Teacuphiccup]

Of course she shouldn’t have to defend the way she looks, we aren’t talking about starting border guards in toilets.
But the alternative is the just allow anyone into the female toilets.

[Teacuphiccup]

The person in the article is very attractive Vee not sure what that has to do with anything

[LangCleg]

The truth is that nobody really passes. We feminists know this. The general public knows this. Transactivists know this (which is why we have such narcissistic rage about it). Everybody knows this.

Hardly any woman has shared a loo or a changing room with a physically transitioned transsexual - let alone done it on the regular for years - without knowing because a) they don't really pass and b) the population of such people is miniscule. Such people have been allowed by women into their spaces on the basis of mutual respect and trust. Not because women didn't know who they were. A covenant which extremist transactivism has now destroyed with its #nodebate, its threats, its violence, its masks and all the rest of it.

All this waffle about you can't tell and what about the butch women and my brother's ex-girlfriend's first cousin twice removed once thought I was a bloke, and on and on and on? Just derailment. We know, at a glance, who belongs in which single sex space and who doesn't. You can type as many whatabouteries as you like, this will still be true.

I don't consent to stranger penis in women's spaces.

Nine words. That's all I need. Those nine words aren't an invitation to debate. They are a boundary. If you think my boundary is a debate then you believe my consent doesn't matter. It does.

[Speedy85]

you might just be much worse at telling whose sex is male/female compared to most people? If others can tell easily even if you cannot then can you see why people might be unhappy?

That's pretty condescending, no? I've been having piano lessons for nearly a year with someone who I think is probably trans, I don't know for sure. Presents as somewhere in between (feminine mannerisms but doesn't wear stereotypically "female" clothes) and that's fine with me. The only pronoun I have ever needed is "you".

I was nearly going to write, "sorry if this sounds condescending but maybe you are just really bad at telling what people's biological sex is?" but decided the post was already too long. Some people are just bad at telling these sorts of things, in the same way some people are bad at guessing peoples' ages.

I don't really understand the point about your piano teacher. I gave the example of someone performing an intimate medical procedure in my post. If I genuinely couldn't tell who was trans and who was not then I might not see the problem with a transwoman performing gynaecological procedures. But because it is always fairly obvious to me if someone is a transwoman, I can understand why a woman might not want gynaecological procedures performed by someone who is trans (whether because they have been abused and find it triggering, or whether they just consider it to jar with their personal boundaries etc).

FWIW, I don't think toilets are that big an issue. For me the bigger areas of concern are prisons (although I hope to never have the misfortune of being in one). Communal changing rooms are also problematic. But what I feel most uncomfortable with is the idea that women are supposed to shut up at the risk of hurting people's feelings and the erosion of sex-segregated spaces to the point that they become meaningless. We don't have sex-segregated prisons because it makes it easy for the prison shops to decide whether to sell lipstick and tampons or beard oil. There are safeguarding concerns.

[TallulahWaitingInTheRain]

I have a female friend who's occasionally challenged because of her masculine appearance, which she finds upsetting and anxiety-provoking. She's also a sexual assault survivor. She's very keen on retaining sex-segregated spaces even though they cause her annoyance and social anxiety because that's better than fear.