'Passing' trans

[SavetheVees]

Namechanged due to ~controversy~

I understand the anti self-ID issue. However, what I don't understand is how single-sex spaces can be policed by appearances alone? I have seen many threads where people speak about 'male bodies' - which is clear in the case of trans people who haven't actually made any effort to transition (incredibly rare in my experience - of course there are high profile examples)

This just really confuses me because I know quite a few trans people, including being a vague acquaintance to Tara Wood (I don't condone her actions so lets not go there), and in many cases, especially where hormones and surgery are involved, it is not really possible to tell they are trans. I first met Tara before she 'came out' as trans and the first time I saw her after the transition, I failed to realise it was the same person I had met before, and thought she was absolutely stunning. I was actually a bit envious of how effortlessly feminine she looked. I also know 'butch' presenting women, who despite being biologically female, are not feminine in the stereotypical-appearance way, and are often mistaken as men. I ALSO know women who have PCOS etc etc and have facial hair, who would be mortified to be accused of being biologically male when accessing single-sex spaces, even though they have a characteristic perceived to be 'male'.

So how would this be managed and policed? If you saw someone you knew to be trans accessing a women's changing room, despite them 'passing' as female visually - would you challenge them? What if someone was truly androgynous - would you challenge them? Would you expect someone else to? Surely there is no way on earth that we should be mandated to carry ID cards with details of our genitalia printed on them, or even worse expected to flash our privates at a changing room attendant in order to gain entry?! These sound far, far more intrusive and offensive to me than having a wee in a cubicle next to someone with a penis.

just to reiterate - I completely understand the ideological values of single sex spaces etc and protecting women from violent and voyeuristic men, however I struggle to understand how these spaces can be policed to avoid "be-penised" bodies without 1) being ineffective and 2) not offending biological vagina-owners who do not fit feminine stereotypes as effectively as trans folk do

[Teacuphiccup]

My mother and her partner decided that I should be brought up ‘gender neutral’ (read Male) and dressed me in Male clothes and had my hair cut short and I have a name that could be a boy or a girl. I was prepubescent and genuinely appeared like a boy, I was always being confused for a boy and I hated it.
There was nothing a sharp ‘I’m a girl’ and a Paddington stare wouldn’t fix though.

[Teacuphiccup]

I’m sick of having to pretend that people’s feelings are more important than women’s safety.

[SavetheVees]

Perhaps I am crap at reading gender - I'm not usually hugely bothered by it. Equally, you may have met people who are trans and you did not realise.

[Teacuphiccup]

But it’s not about gender it’s about sex.

[Teacuphiccup]

You seem to be completely ignoring the meat of the matter vee which is that actually under the current system gender non conforming women and trans women all use the female toilets now and always have done,

but with self id we lose the right to ask any Male who is acting weird to leave the toilets because they can pretend to be trans.

[Kneedeepinunicorns]

I'm confused by some of the threads/comments I see on mumsnet saying that people have a responsibility to look a certain way to access certain spaces

I've missed these, can you signpost me to any examples?

My stance boils down to:

• Look however you want, express yourself however you want, I'm not bothered if that's feminized, masculinized, a starfleet officer or a Klingon Elf. Go for it, be happy. I also want a strong law preventing violence, discrimination or harassment for people not conforming to gender expectations that let's face it, is all about policing toxic masculinity. And a major national crackdown on male violence.
  
  
• The current law works fine. Transwomen who actually are transwomen freely use the women's facilities. If an obvious male in the women's loos/changing areas is making women in there uncomfortable the law is on side for that person to be challenged and made to leave, which protects both women and transwomen.
  
  
• Self ID creates a problem where currently one doesn't exist and that's where the whole 'passing' muddle starts. If anyone can simply verbally state a sex and use those facilities unchallenged, no matter how obviously their claim is dodgy (let's say Danielle Muscato in beard and a frock, with his 'suck my lady dick' sign) then either women are being asked to surrender sex segregation permanently in all situations for the sake of a small population of men, along with this being Christmas for sexual offenders, or lines have to be drawn. Then you have these very difficult questions around where do you put those lines, and the whole issue is that woman is not a performance of femininity. And neither is it a feeling in a man's head. It's a biological fact.
  
  A number of transsexuals (using that word as the one they themselves choose) have shared here and in articles that they are very concerned that via self ID women will be forced back to a position of 'it is not possible to put a line down around 'passing' or 'some stereotype of gender performance' for very obvious reasons, and therefore segregation must fall back to biological sex only. Which removes the current access and acceptance of most transwomen for the sake of a few TIMS who are determined to push the envelope. Often, when you look at their explanations and articles, for very dodgy reasons that no reasonable person would see women and girls have a duty to be indulging.
  
  
• A third space (probably in the form of fully enclosed single cubicles) should be provided in all public toilets and changing facilities as an alternative for those who would prefer it, and in situations where women should retain the right to a specifically (biological) woman only space for reasons of privacy, dignity and consent.

[spontaneousgiventime]

In general day-to-day interactions I don't care if someone is male, female or one of the other dozens of genders. I DO care about womens sex segregated spaces being for biological woman. There is a reason they were fought for and a reason to keep them sacrosanct.

[Teacuphiccup]

No one is asking for genital inspections or border guards, we just want to rettain to be able to challenge voyers in the toilets.

[LangCleg]

If you don't acknowledge sex, you can't acknowledge sexism. That's what it's about for me. The root of women's oppression under patriarchy is biology.

[lovetheway]

first met Tara before she 'came out' as trans and the first time I saw her after the transition, I failed to realise it was the same person I had met before, and thought she was absolutely stunning.

Tara - is that you?

[Idontdowindows]

You're not reading gender. It's SEX you're reading.

[Carriemac]

Tara Wood does not 'pass'

[Carriemac]

in my opinion

[Teacuphiccup]

Let’s not get pulled into a conversation about whether people ‘pass’ or not.

[Trousersdontmakemeaman]

The problem we have is that a default sex segregation is being changed to a default gender segregation in law and compelled cutural acceptance.

This means two things;

1. the law is on the side of any malicious man who chooses to use it, and this is being tested to the limit in prisons already;
   
2. child protection for girls has been thrown out of the window in favour of a small minority of boys and men;
   
3. we are forcing girls and women to give up their right to consent in all circumstances where they could expect privacy.
   
   This has nothing to do with passing or not passing. The fact that women are being forced to tie their selves up in knots to try to justify why sex segregation is needed is evidence of the forced nature of what is happening. This is being forced on women and girls. Forced.
   
   Some people may not mind this coercion and not see it as such. But this is what is happening. If it was a wonderful voluntary choice for all there would be no need for this level of force.

[Trousersdontmakemeaman]

Three things! I can't count.

[KittyKlaws]

comments I see on mumsnet saying that people have a responsibility to look a certain way to access certain spaces

I'd be interested to see where this point was made. I read these boards frequently and don't recall ever seeing that mindset but I'm happy to be proven wrong if you can show me the evidence.

As someone else said and I also do not want to make it personal I do think what you believe passes and what I see as passing are very different things. I too know butch women and I don't find it hard to see them as women, it is about more than appearance.

...And while I'm at it

I think it doesn't help that I was recently asked if I was trans by someone who thought they were being sensitive. I'm not - I'm just not very pretty [Grin]

I don't like this idea of women needing to be pretty or feminine and I think the idealisation of looking 'womanly' is also an issue for women and particularly young women.

[Ohforfoxsakereturns]

You know what OP, we’re just women trying to make sense of this massive steaming pile of shit dumped on us by men.

By men, about men, for men. Absolutely no concern for women whatsoever.

Let’s just do what Upstart Crow said further up thread and have done with it.

My peaks are peaking.

[KittyKlaws]

You are looking a bit peaky Ohforfoxsakereturns r u alright hun?

[ShotsFired]

@SavetheVees But the PP whose ex-girlfriend was asked to leave the ladies toilet due to being tall and butch

Let's take this step by step:
Why exactly were they asked to leave?

• Because someone thought they were male.
  
  And why did that worry the someone?
  
• Because they felt at risk.
  
  And why did they feel at risk?
  
• Because of the overwhelming prevalence of male violence (sexual and/or physical) which is entirely unpredictable and very difficult for women to physically resist against, hence the fact women went ahead and built places where only they were allowed.
  
  And there you have it. Someone didn't just take offence to that person looking butch, it was the connotations of it - the fact that the risk is real and they were trying to preempt any issue happening.
  
  Have you ever walked anywhere with your keys poking through your fingers? Ditto. Have you ever not got in a cab because it just didn't feel right? Ditto. Have you ever taken the long way round to avoid a dark park or alley? Ditto. Have you ever seen a lone female looking uneasy and stepped in to see if something was up? Ditto.

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

I'd actually like to see a male viewpoint on this.

IMO (and it appears most on this thread are the same) males who identify as trans just don't pass in an uncontrolled environment. Females who identify as trans, to my mind pass much better.

I'm not sure if this is because (as a PP mentioned) the effects of testosterone are so great, or if it is because I am a woman I am very good at identifying who is not female.

That's why I'd be interested in a male point of view - do men find it easier to tell if a female identifying as trans is actually female. Or is it always the males identifying as trans who pass less well?

[RealityHasALiberalBias]

SavetheVees

Your comment here is very telling about the current trans ideology:

I think it doesn't help that I was recently asked if I was trans by someone who thought they were being sensitive. I'm not - I'm just not very pretty [Grin]

I sometimes wonder whether some people might think I am trans, because I am of large build, not very pretty, and don't wear make-up (though this probably makes me trans by some definitions out there - ffs).

Ten, twenty years ago, this would never have crossed my mind. For all the claims of the trans ideologists that they are trying to break down stereotypes, they are actually reinforcing them. If you don't perform stereotypical femininity or masculinity, you are trans (and sooo special!).

Ten, twenty years ago, you would not have been asked if you were trans. I've been watching some old Victoria Wood and French and Saunders on Netflix recently, and it's striking how gender non-conforming they are. It's all trouser suits and masculine haircuts. These are straight women, just wearing what they're wearing. No need to make a fuss and be all performatively woke about it.

How have we gone so far backwards in the last 25-30 years?

The gender critical feminist view is that gender stereotypes are a load of old cobblers that reinforce patriarchal structures. Wear what you like, no matter your biological sex. It doesn't mean you have to "identify" as anything. It's just what you wear.

No amount of identifying is going to change your male or female biological functions.

And yes, agree with others about there being no need to get into discussions about "passing". It's not relevant, and to think it is is missing the point.

[SirVixofVixHall]

I agree that it is usually obvious what sex someone is. As mammals who are sexually dimorphic, telling the sexes apart is fairly crucial, and comes down to all sorts of tiny clues , even scent.
I also agree that this is completely irrelevant to same sex space. I couldn’t care less how feminine someone is or isn’t, I care what sex they are.

[invisibleoldwoman]

But it’s not just about passing as the opposite sex in places like toilets is it? It is about any man at any age being able to say he is a woman , without any attempt at ‘passing’ and compete in women’s sports, take up places on women’s programmes, eg the Jo Cox Foundation, All women shortlist’s. Women’s awards. On trial for assaulting a woman, in prison for rape or murder and be transferred to a women’s prison. Work in women’s refuges, the list goes on.

Even our biological language is being removed.

These things are happening. Women who self id as men on the other hand, it’s a different story. Their inheritance rights for example are specifically excluded from the legislation. They do not seem to be taking up men’s spaces and privileges in the same way.

[spontaneousgiventime]

invisibleoldwoman Touch primogeniture? WHAT!! The boyz would create merry hell. Women don't matter.