'Passing' trans

[SavetheVees]

Namechanged due to ~controversy~

I understand the anti self-ID issue. However, what I don't understand is how single-sex spaces can be policed by appearances alone? I have seen many threads where people speak about 'male bodies' - which is clear in the case of trans people who haven't actually made any effort to transition (incredibly rare in my experience - of course there are high profile examples)

This just really confuses me because I know quite a few trans people, including being a vague acquaintance to Tara Wood (I don't condone her actions so lets not go there), and in many cases, especially where hormones and surgery are involved, it is not really possible to tell they are trans. I first met Tara before she 'came out' as trans and the first time I saw her after the transition, I failed to realise it was the same person I had met before, and thought she was absolutely stunning. I was actually a bit envious of how effortlessly feminine she looked. I also know 'butch' presenting women, who despite being biologically female, are not feminine in the stereotypical-appearance way, and are often mistaken as men. I ALSO know women who have PCOS etc etc and have facial hair, who would be mortified to be accused of being biologically male when accessing single-sex spaces, even though they have a characteristic perceived to be 'male'.

So how would this be managed and policed? If you saw someone you knew to be trans accessing a women's changing room, despite them 'passing' as female visually - would you challenge them? What if someone was truly androgynous - would you challenge them? Would you expect someone else to? Surely there is no way on earth that we should be mandated to carry ID cards with details of our genitalia printed on them, or even worse expected to flash our privates at a changing room attendant in order to gain entry?! These sound far, far more intrusive and offensive to me than having a wee in a cubicle next to someone with a penis.

just to reiterate - I completely understand the ideological values of single sex spaces etc and protecting women from violent and voyeuristic men, however I struggle to understand how these spaces can be policed to avoid "be-penised" bodies without 1) being ineffective and 2) not offending biological vagina-owners who do not fit feminine stereotypes as effectively as trans folk do

[Rufustheconstantreindeer]

And just how many butch women have you seen in the ladies loo Mad

[Teacuphiccup]

Ok so let’s pretend there’s a woman who is so masculine people would mistake her for being Male.
Chances are no one would question her being in the toilet under the current system and if they did she’d say ‘I’m a woman’ and that would be the end of it.
It would be a pain in the arse for her but I’m assuming if she is that masculine presenting she’d probably be used to it.

But in reality she’d probably never get asked because all she’d be doing is going in for a pee and not loitering around making people feel uncomfortable for kicks.

[Rufustheconstantreindeer]

I don't usually make a study of it

I have a wee, wash my hands and leave

I assume that the person next to me even presenting as male is actually a female as she is in the ladies loo...thats my understanding of the old honour system

[SavetheVees]

OK I guess this all kind of answers my question. Basically there isn't really any issue with trans people accessing female spaces, as long as they are feminised enough to not raise an eyebrow.

So what about trans men - what if they pass? But they still have a vagina - so they should be in the ladies, but they look like a man?! What then?

[waterlego6064]

The fact that the women you refer to are ‘repeatedly asked’ if they are men proves the point you’re arguing against! People aren’t sure because their instinct is telling them it’s a woman, but the presentation is masculine.

[womanhuman]

I agree that anyone, of any sex, should be removed from spaces when they cause a problem

Penises in women-only spaces are a problem.* Therefore the penis owner should not be in the women-only space.

The solution is for all penis-owners everywhere to undertake not to rape, abuse, be violent towards, objectify, ridicule or be voyeuristic or intimidating towards women. Once that’s achieved we can talks about sharing spaces.

*This is true whether or not a woman in the women-only space makes a fuss. Most women will simply leave the women-only space feeling uncomfortable.

[RefuseToDenounceBiology]

I’m not surprised your friends sometimes get referred to as he, it’s very confusing nowadays, it’s difficult to tell if a gender non comfoming woman is a gender non conforming woman or a trans man.

Indeed this current fashion for 'identifying' as different from what you actually are, coupled with taking huge, panicky, melt-down offence if that 'identity' is not immediately recognised as being what you actually are, has got all well-meaning people treading on eggshells and saying the opposite of what they think out of politeness anyway.

[Speedy85]

I disagree with this entirely, as I said I know quite a few trans people and only a few of them don't entirely "pass" in my experience.

I completely disagree with you OP. This is not my experience at all. I think very few trans women actually pass. I don't want to make it personal but I don't think Tara Wood passes. I think Janet Mock does, but they are one of the few transwomen who passes to my eyes. Butch women still look like women to me, even if they don't dress/have their hair cut etc in stereotypical ways.

OP have you considered that you might just be much worse at telling whose sex is male/female compared to most people? If others can tell easily even if you cannot then can you see why people might be unhappy?

I can see why it is harsh to people who don't pass to make that a dividing line for access, but there IMO obvious reasons why women might become stressed at seeing someone who appears male in a female-only space/performing intimate medical procedures etc.

I agree with pp who have said that the move to self-ID is a cultural change. I was recently in the ladies and there was someone there who was clearly a young man and did not look like they were even attempting to present as a woman. My first instinct was to say 'You know this is the ladies, right?', but instead I shut up, and I am not usually the shrinking violet type. It is already having an effect.

[MoltenLasagne]

The honour system has worked for decades - it's under threat now because obviously male individuals are demanding access to a space that was previously given as a courtesy.

[TallulahWaitingInTheRain]

The thing is, OP, none of this is our problem to solve. We want sex-segregated spaces. If people are going to go to great lengths to look as if they shouldn't be in them, then yes it's a problem but I don't think it's our problem, nor is it a reason to do away with sex segregation. It might well be a reason for additional gender neutral spaces where feasible,

[Teacuphiccup]

OK I guess this all kind of answers my question. Basically there isn't really any issue with trans people accessing female spaces, as long as they are feminised enough to not raise an eyebrow.

That’s not what we are saying.

What we are saying is that under the current system trans people use the loo, they have a pee they leave, the end.

But if a male person uses the toilet and is being weird we can ask them to leave and the law is on our side.
I’m sure you are aware of how many voyers there are and how many men get off on pushing women’s boundaries etc.

Under self id if we ask them to leave they can claim they are trans and we will be commiting a hate crime.

Which means the culture shifts so we feel we can’t ask men to leave Women’s loos unless they are specifically committing a crime which most voyers aren’t doing they are just trying to make you uncomfortable.

[UpstartCrow]

@SavetheVees why do you find gender stereotypes more problematic than the reason women need sex segregated resources in the first place?
If male violence wasn't an issue we'd only need privacy, and a curtain would be adequate in most situations.

I'm not going to get drawn into a discussion on who 'passes' or not, its vile.

[MoltenLasagne]

Most transmen want to be in the ladies because of the fear of male violence. If they are confident enough to pass in the mens and there are cubicles available then I don't see the problem, if they are not (and most transmen I've met are also readably female especially with mannerisms) then they are still welcome in the women's as they are, as you've stated, female.

[foxyliz26]

I have been in a couple of long term relationships with tall Butch lesbians , one of them got so pissed off with the constant excuse me Sir The Gents is next door !
she only uses male loos now

[SpareRibFem]

IMO the current honour system works as well as any system is going to (which is not the same as being a perfect system)

It is about retaining the ability for women to challenge potential men in a situation where they feel unsafe without being vilified for being transphobic and told they have no right to exclude any male that says they are a woman at that point in time no matter how ludicrous.

And it comes back to women's eternal risk of male violence and sexual violence.

If transwomen had the same rates of violence as women there would not be anything like as much concern. But studies show they retain the violence patterns of their birth gender. Which means some transwomen just like some men are not a risk to us, but they don't wear signs so we've relied on the honour system.

It is precisely those transwomen that feel entitled to ignore and ridicule our boundaries when we say we're not comfortable that are going to ignore our boundaries when it comes to violence (TW being a good example).

We need a legal mechanism to exclude them if we feel we need to.

DV shelters, rape crisis centres and female prisons are all places that house vulnerable women and they need additional protection.

[SavetheVees]

If you saw someone who did pass though, you wouldn't know that they are trans and therefore would not be factoring them in to this anecdotal evidence that 'trans people can't pass'.

For example this couple - knowing they are trans you can pull out features that make sense of that, but if I met either of them without this knowledge I would definitely not jump to the conclusion that they are trans.

[Teacuphiccup]

I’m not going to comment on whether specific people ‘pass’ or not, it’s a horrible thing to do because obviously all we can say is ‘yes they pass’ or we’re being spiteful bullies.

[Teacuphiccup]

Why does it matter whether people pass or not??

How does that change anything?

In the current system trans people can use the toilets whether they pass or not.

[TallulahWaitingInTheRain]

Again, who passes and who doesn't isnt our problem. We want to keep sex-segregated spaces and to retain the right to kick non-women out of women-only spaces if they are making us uncomfortable. People who pass won't have a problem and people who don't should either use the other facility or campaign for an additional space.

[SavetheVees]

why do you find gender stereotypes more problematic

Honestly - because I don't feel that any of this would be as much of an issue if people could wear what they want and present what they want without being coerced into pivoting their entire existence - i.e. if a man wants to wear a dress and makeup that is entirely fine and acceptable and he can still use the mens toilet. Without being abused or told that he must be a woman inside and that his appearance can only be acceptable with the aid of medication, surgery, and good luck.

I entirely agree that there are distinct biological differences between men and women (and the few with unconventional chromosomes and biological make-up) but it seems to be a 'girls like pink and boys like blue' mentality driving the trans debate.

[Ohforfoxsakereturns]

There isn’t an issue with trans people who are considerate and aware of the discomfort they may cause, those who understand that our fear is accumulated from decades of abuse and harrasmment from men. I’m too old to be harassed in the street anymore, but when I look at my poor daughters, and they are just beginning. It breaks my heart.

So these men who demand we stand with them, who demand their (Male) entitlement to spaces into which we have been forced to retreat, no, they aren’t welcomed.

Until they understand that our socialisation is entirely different and our life experience has led us to behaviour in a certain way, to be fearful, and to worry, and until they use their voices to stand WITH US and demand MEN modify their behaviour, then we can’t make progress.

Thankfully man trans people do get it, and are allies. It’s a small vocal minority of people who genuinely hate women, who want to take the costume but don’t want to share womanhood, who are doing the damage.

Why not ask them?

[Teacuphiccup]

Erm that’s literally the gender critical view point vee pretty much word for word.

[SavetheVees]

@Teacuphiccup that's exactly why I'm confused by some of the threads/comments I see on mumsnet saying that people have a responsibility to look a certain way to access certain spaces. I genuinely believe there is no way of telling whats in someone's underwear with 100% certainly, just at a glance

[Idontdowindows]

It's not about how people look.

It is about what people ARE.

And we CAN TELL WHAT THEY ARE by looking at them in 99.9R % of cases.

[MoltenLasagne]

I think you've misunderstood, we're saying that obviously male people should be able to be challenged and asked to leave. We're not saying "if you want to access this space you must look like this" but we're arguing to maintain our current right to challenge obvious men in women's spaces.