'Passing' trans

[SavetheVees]

Namechanged due to ~controversy~

I understand the anti self-ID issue. However, what I don't understand is how single-sex spaces can be policed by appearances alone? I have seen many threads where people speak about 'male bodies' - which is clear in the case of trans people who haven't actually made any effort to transition (incredibly rare in my experience - of course there are high profile examples)

This just really confuses me because I know quite a few trans people, including being a vague acquaintance to Tara Wood (I don't condone her actions so lets not go there), and in many cases, especially where hormones and surgery are involved, it is not really possible to tell they are trans. I first met Tara before she 'came out' as trans and the first time I saw her after the transition, I failed to realise it was the same person I had met before, and thought she was absolutely stunning. I was actually a bit envious of how effortlessly feminine she looked. I also know 'butch' presenting women, who despite being biologically female, are not feminine in the stereotypical-appearance way, and are often mistaken as men. I ALSO know women who have PCOS etc etc and have facial hair, who would be mortified to be accused of being biologically male when accessing single-sex spaces, even though they have a characteristic perceived to be 'male'.

So how would this be managed and policed? If you saw someone you knew to be trans accessing a women's changing room, despite them 'passing' as female visually - would you challenge them? What if someone was truly androgynous - would you challenge them? Would you expect someone else to? Surely there is no way on earth that we should be mandated to carry ID cards with details of our genitalia printed on them, or even worse expected to flash our privates at a changing room attendant in order to gain entry?! These sound far, far more intrusive and offensive to me than having a wee in a cubicle next to someone with a penis.

just to reiterate - I completely understand the ideological values of single sex spaces etc and protecting women from violent and voyeuristic men, however I struggle to understand how these spaces can be policed to avoid "be-penised" bodies without 1) being ineffective and 2) not offending biological vagina-owners who do not fit feminine stereotypes as effectively as trans folk do

[thebewilderness]

Now the ratfuckers have arrived.

[thebewilderness]

Hyperbole much?

[PerspicaciaTick]

As a pp said, it’s not about gender it’s about sex.

Biological sex. Sex equality. Sex as a protected characteristic.

Not gender, which is just the means by which we are oppressed - not the reason why we are oppressed.

[TotallyLibrarianPoo]

koyaanisqatsi ????? You didn't read the thread at all!

[thebewilderness]

I’m very disturbed at the really quite nasty comments tearing the OP to shreds for highlighting lesbian safety.

Torn to shreds, Nothing left of them. Srsly? You have read things into the thread that are not there. Or did you not bother?

[AngryAttackKittens]

I was actually a bit envious of how effortlessly feminine she looked.

This is sad, OP. I don't know any women irl who would say this, and I wonder if it's a product of being in spaces where there's so much focus on gender identity.

I also live in an area with lots of trans people. Almost all of them are easily clockable. So is Tara, which is just one of the reasons why your statement above is so sad. It's not that hard to tell that Tara is male even in photos, so what in your mind is "feminine" and is it really something you want to have, or just something you feel like you should have?

[AngryAttackKittens]

Also, as people have been saying, you're avoiding the real argument that GC women are making because you know you aren't going to win it, thus the attempt to refocus on passing so you can call us all evil witches when we fail to agree with you that most trans people pass, and throw in a little bonus nastiness about butch women not looking like women (they do).

It's not going to work.

[thebewilderness]

koyaanisqatsi

Most of the stories I have read about Lesbians being hassled for using the women's rest room have been men doing it. Male bouncers specifically targeting dykes to teach women a lesson about saying no to men.
ymmv

[Onemorning]

I thought TW's violent assault was effortlessly masculine, OP.

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

so what in your mind is "feminine" and is it really something you want to have, or just something you feel like you should have?

I didn't really clock that the first time I read the thread, and I should have. It's an interesting comment which shows a lot. As the thread is about passing I would have thought the OP would have said, "effortlessly female".

Female and feminine are not the same thing at all. Female is biological reality, feminine (IMO) is how far an individual adheres to societies current view of what female should be.

If a man is feminine, they are simply a feminine man, not a female. And vice versa for women.

There have been multiple recorded cases in the press of butch women being physically assaulted because other women thought (or claimed to think) they were male, or forced to show their anatomy to prove they are female

I have never seen these reports, but thankfully it must be fairly rare as it has never happened to me in all my many years of not conforming to the current feminine ideal.

[AngryAttackKittens]

Did you see the comment where OP says someone (in a "queer" space) asked her if she was trans, and from her perspective it was because she isn't pretty? That's a poisonous environment that's not doing anyone in it any good.

"Pretty" and "feminine" and "woman" are not synonyms. We used to know this, as a society.

[LangCleg]

I wonder what some people would make of my - rural, farming - community. Most of the women here go about in jeans, a shirt and either wellies or workboots. No make up. No hair styles. No manicures. Just people appropriately attired for driving the tractor or manhandling the livestock and not at all concerned with - well, what does one call it? Gender signalling?

And yet, by some strange, mystical, utterly unexplainable perception, everybody knows which toilet everybody else needs to go in.

[MsBeaujangles]

There is the principle to consider, which should underpin the reality.

Where sexed bodies are part of the equation, access to a provision should be determined by sexed bodies. Part of the debate is whether this should be the case or not.

If this is achieved, the onus is on individuals to comply with the policy. The rule is, female sexed bodies - access, male sexed bodies - access denied.


If a space is

[MsBeaujangles]

whoops - pressed Post by mistake

If a space is legally designated for female sexed bodies and a person with a male sexed body enters - then they are in the wrong. If a person may suprise people because they have a female sexed body and this wasn't expected, that is irrelevant. They have every right to access the provision.

We don't abandon ideas of social welfare because it is hard to police/avoid fraud. We work with the problems. It should be the case that the criteria for entering the provision is clear and people should be expected to uphold the rules.

We will always get people trying to cheat the system. That doesn't;t mean abolish the system.

[SpareRibFem]

I've never seen news report of 'butch' lesbians being asked to show women their genitalia before being allowed to use ladies toilets, please would the OP show sources.

I have seen news reports of male security guards objecting to women they think are men using ladies toilets [http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2910003/Lesbian-couple-kicked-ladies-toilets-cinema-security-guard-thought-MEN.html] and I was outraged and bewildered on their behalf. I don't know about anyone else but these ladies wouldn't have warranted a second glance from me, they are very clearly women.

It is (some) men that have a skewed idea of how 'normal' women should look and they are pushing this view onto young women.

[DickTERFin]

I don't know why, if you are an advocate for trans rights, you would offer Hannah up to debate their "passability" like some sort of sacrificial lamb.

Do you know Hannah? Did you ask them first if it was ok put them under such scrutiny?

[SpareRibFem]

We are not denying there is a problem, there is a problem, I've seen several reports of male security guards challenging lesbians in ladies toilets.

I'm sure trans women accessing women's toilets will be making that problem worse and again it is women suffering the impact.

We are asking you to substantiate your claim that there have been numerous news reports of women demanding lesbians show their genitalia to be allowed to use ladies toilets. You have not yet done that.

[MsGameandWatching]

I've never seen a woman that I thought was a man, ever, even when I was in the armed forces with its very high rate of tough, strong, fit women who dress in masculine uniform and groom purely for practical purposes.

I've never seen a Trans Woman who truly passed as a woman even when I was working in a city centre bar that attracted a predominantly LGBT clientele.

These are my experiences and I agree with previous posters who say trans people rarely pass, especially once they start moving, making gestures etc. A still, posed photo perhaps but never in RL. Also agree that most people just pretend they do pass to be nice.