Ooh step back, India Willoughby is going to penetrate the Mumsnet debate

[ALittleBitOfButter]

Just saw on twitter that IW says will do radio interview about Mumsnet. Sorry can't link as on phone.

there is nothing of the kind that India is talking about when you type in transgender. Nothing. India is a lying idiot.

Its quite likely that India is getting her information via 'trans-twitter' either directly or indirectly. There's all sorts of screen-shots flying around and then being absorbed as 'truths'.

I'm presuming that India would assert that she has a right to a public platform due to having a long career in journalism? That being the case, some basic research would go a long way.

Just heard it on catch up. Brilliant, think I may have a girl crush on JHB now. I put 'transgender' in the MN search facility & just got book recommendations. Am I doing it wrong? IW showed up as as total arse.

& when I say 'screen shots flying around', I mean quite a lot of propaganda, & misinformation, some out right lies and an awful lot of things taken out of context!

I put 'transgender' in the MN search facility & just got book recommendations

I got a bizarre thread from 2014 where a TIM wanted to discuss breasts and fashion advice. It was ...odd.

If I put it into advanced search I get a lot of threads about transgender and issues with self ID.

For once it would be nice to have a transman interviewed in a debate with women instead of transwomen socialised as men for fifty years talking over women.

I'm just listening, JHB is pretty good at not getting talked over. I thought it was interesting that she said that she had spoken to IW before the show and made clear that IW would not be able to police JHBs language in the show.

That 'I am Sparticus' thread is extraordinary

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2716595-TransAgenda-BullShit-The-I-am-Spartacus-Thread?pg=2

JHB had to be extremely assertive there to not be spoken over.

This is what she managed to say:

"You can call yourself a woman, dress as a woman all you want but if you've got a penis you are still a man. End of story. Fact."

(The bit in bold was the exact words, the other bit is approximate because I was writing down in a hurry)

What she said there, to IW's face is exactly the kind of thing IW wants mumsnetters to stop saying.

Listening to @JustineMumsnet she clearly understands the conflicting 'rights' in the issue to some depth and presented a solid case for the need for unrestricted discussion.

"I think the problem with this is that the trans lobby have confused an issue about people quite rightfully sticking up for the idea of hard won women's rights around.... (interruption by IW 'but transgender women are women, so its equal rights, its the same thing')

The upshot of the change to the legislation that's been asked for around self-identity, is that you are putting women, including transgender women quite frankly in vulnerable positions potentially.
We need to be able to discuss if we are changing legislation and for very good reasons because I am totally in favour of recognition, equality and fair treatment of all individuals and letting them live how they live.
But we need to be able to discuss these competing rights and it needs to not just be shut down....and I'm afraid and to be honest India you've got to see the other point of view India, you can't just plough on with the [position] 'our issue is the only important one''

I agree with Justine!

Been out all morning; is there anyway to listen to this again anywhere?

Thank you so much for linking to the Spartacus threads; I didn't realise they were only a year ago.

And in starting to reading them, look how far we've come.

Earlier in this thread was a discussion about the TGLWGH. New people visiting these threads perhaps need to know that collectively we are committed to respectful debate. Not least as we have parents of 'trans' teens and children here as well as trans men and women, joining us in our discussions. And this means that we self report and delete anything that is offensive, and I think it’s necessary. Apart from anything, recent interviews I r seen with Karen I, Sarah Ditum and Dr Nick have shown me how very effective their respective debate can be.

I appreciate there's strong feelings around this, I get very cross. Hadn’t heard of gaslighting till I read mn, now I do see it linked to these debates. But a post on a thread that first discussed THLWGH, made the parallels with ML King’s approach to vitriol. This is an entirely different debate but the principles can be as effective. Dealing with inflammatory posts re Trans on MN (thread for info:
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3215675-Dealing-with-inflammatory-posts-re-Trans-on-MN )

What she said there, to IW's face is exactly the kind of thing IW wants mumsnetters to stop saying.

Indeed, I've just had an official telling off for saying something far less direct than that ("male" rather than "man" and no references to genitalia).

How are we meant to discuss this if we can't even say that trans women are male? Y chromosome having?

It is on You Tube.

I think the issue with activists such as India is simply the intransigence of their position.

It's impossible to assert you want to debate when your stance is so hardline and importantly one that's hard to defend based on facts.

When your start point is that a man is a woman if they say they are (irrespective of biology) you've already boxed yourself so tightly into a corner the only way to get out is fighting.

I do get quite annoyed for example at the continued assertion that the implication of women questioning self id wrt access to safe spaces is that trans people are sexual predators.

That's not what's being said at all. Rather that self id has the potential to be used by sexual predators (as does the current interpretation of the law and women feeling unable to challenge men in safe spaces as happens right now) to the detriment of women and trans women.

This was exactly the point being made about the sleeper trains.

There's a continual twisting of the messaging that's disingenuous at best.

(BTW if I'm about to bow out, as may well be the case - it's important to keep bringing this to the awareness of the general public, so please don't stop.)

Ekphrasis

The spartacus threads were August 2016. I specifically remember that Obama was still in because he issued that Executive Order about trans bathroom policy.

@AngryAttackKittens - was it a telling off from here or elsewhere. I hope this isn't affecting you IRL.

Ekphrasis - someone linked to the broadcast up thread.
Thanks to that person I have just heard it.
Justine and JHB were both brilliant.
I think JHB is great. I get so fed up of people in her position who never have any of their own views or who are so concerned about their image they never express any
A year since Spartacus

From MNHQ. IRL I'm in the weird position of being surrounded by people who will mouth the correct platitudes in public and then freely admit that they don't believe a word of it in private.

I have had a message that two posts of mine were deleted from this thread because I used the word 'male' to describe people who are of the sex which is not female.

I would really appreciate some input as to how to discuss power relations between the sexes without naming them, as the terms trans woman and trans men do obfuscate the issue, given that my experience with most people who are not well versed in this issue is that they are often confused by these particular terms and use MTF and FTM instead, which still do have 'male' and 'female' inside them, and are considered outdated and offensive by both feminists and trans activists.

I am also aware that an increasing number of transexual people are publicly coming out and identifying themselves as male/female such as @mirandayardley, especially as from their perspective the medical care that they rely on depends on their recognition as male or female bodied.

Any advice on how to avoid further deletions/bans without avoiding these topics would be very welcome, thank you.

2 years ! I need to type more quickly

Mine was to inform me that it was a problem to use male to describe a person who was shouting at an elderly female person on a TV programme. I had thought that we were allowed to use the word male to describe situations like that, and am not sure how we're meant to discuss this issue at all if we're not.

Just tuned in ....Wow - How brilliant!!!!!! We couldn't ask for more - SO thrilled and excited this happened

And Mumsnut - Welcome mat a seriously good idea - Really Great idea... I think we need to be as easy to access and friendly as pos to newcomers! I don't know how we do it... not an experienced enough mums netter... but I am one of those who peaked through Mumsnet when I first discovered threads over Christmas...Could NOT believe this was happening - and utterly gripped and clear since... Cannot stop talking to people about it... Together we can make this madness stop!

@AngryAttackKittens I hope you just mean this thread, and you're not planning on bowing out of the trans debate all together?! That would be an absolute travesty. You're one of my favourite posters!

kittens I'd be really sad to see you go