Ooh step back, India Willoughby is going to penetrate the Mumsnet debate

[ALittleBitOfButter]

Just saw on twitter that IW says will do radio interview about Mumsnet. Sorry can't link as on phone.

and am not sure how we're meant to discuss this issue at all if we're not.

It is problematic but I'm guessing with all the media attention the site will be under some scrutiny. One of the huge problems of this debate is how language is being taken away from us and making it difficult to have a debate which isn't confused by having to translate terms.

Also agree with Tallulah - it would be sad if you left. I enjoy your contributions.

Mine was to inform me that it was a problem to use male to describe a person who was shouting at an elderly female person on a TV programme

Yes, similar - mine was because I:
A) noted that a situation where males being employed by the media to speak over females on a women's rights topic is a well recognised sexist phenomenon.
And B) because I noted that a situation where a male person consistently interrupts and shouts down female people is also a well recognised sexist phenomenon.

Im not sure how to discuss these power relations or sexism at all without noting sex. Obviously I don't want to be excluded from a discussion which is relevant to my own rights and oppression as a female person so I would like help in finding away to talk about this without being deleted or banned.

I got it by putting 'talk radio' in the browser. Never heard of that station before. Then I found it under 'culture' or maybe news? Why would it be culture? Anyway, I did like that they show the segments if the show, what's to be covered in them so's you don't spend ages hunting for what you want. Def listening tomorrow.

MNHQ seem to think that the talk guidelines provide enough clarity on this issue. I disagree, and the fact that the deletions are often not consistent even within the same thread (so you'll have one post deleted for fairly mild criticism, and another that's far more direct and harsh left up) isn't helping to clarify what is and isn't acceptable.

Clear guidelines, they would help!

Darth - That's not what's being said at all. Rather that self id has the potential to be used by sexual predators to the detriment of women and trans women.
Isn't there also a safe spaces issue which is completely separate from fear of sexual predators? There will be women who, because of things that have happened to them in the past, are extremely uncomfortable with having men in those safe spaces even if there is no question of the latter wishing them harm.

Is that because IW (if that's who you mean) is 'legally female', AAK?

I was deleted for using male pronouns to refer to a TIM yesterday.

I cannot use female pronouns to refer to biological males, MN. It is an insult to me as a woman. I don't understand why my thoughts on this are less valid than the TRAs. You may consider it polite towards them - but equally I consider it impolite and downright disrespectful towards me.

I have namechanged to highlight that I am still Spartacus.

I think the inconsistency is down to which posts are reported or not. My email did say I shouldn't use the word men but I am very watchful of myself not to use that term. I wonder if 'they go low we go high' is being too tightly policed? If we self censor to the point we can't acknowledge sex then the conversation (and all discussion of women's rights) is over anyway?

Angry Attack Kittens are you seriously being shut down for saying men/males have a tendency to talk over women/females??? Surely that's something all women have experienced and know it for the truth it is.

MNHQ, would 'sexism involved in XY person shouting down XX person' meet the case?

Just read the second Spartacus thread, I thought it was longer!

I agree the male/ female thing is confusing. For the purposes of some types of medicine and medical treatment, a trans person must use their original sex. And as said, many vocal trans women are stating that that do not deny their sex nor who they were before they transitioned.

Please don't go AngryAttack, your posts are extremely valuable

As a I understand it, "misgendering" individuals is unacceptable but a science based discussion more generally is fine.

My thoughts exactly, Idontdowindows.

As I said, it is an insult to me to refer to biological males as women, with female grammar.

I was referring to an incident on CBB where Amanda Barrie was shouted at in the kitchen.

This is what I mean though. Regardless of whether I jump or I'm pushed out, I'm troubled by just how tightly this is currently being policed. Obviously MNHQ is being pressured by advertisers. Justine has said that she's committed to allowing the discussion to happen. How can it happen without the use of the words male and female, which people are already using in an attempt to be more polite and avoid using the words woman and man? At what point are you compromising so much that you're not longer able to have a productive conversation at all?

#sexmatters

Thanks for the link btw.

Mine was to inform me that it was a problem to use male to describe a person who was shouting at an elderly female person on a TV programme. I had thought that we were allowed to use the word male to describe situations like that, and am not sure how we're meant to discuss this issue at all if we're not.

I dunno. 'Person whose preferred pronoun is "she"? IMO, circumlocution can sound awkward but can get the meaning across. It might be offensive though.

Mine was to inform me that it was a problem to use male to describe a person who was shouting at an elderly female person on a TV programme. I had thought that we were allowed to use the word male to describe situations like that, and am not sure how we're meant to discuss this issue at all if we're not.

AAK - that's not right. That is taking away your ability to distinguish people by sex. Which is what the whole argument is about!!

We must be able to distinguish between these, or we've already lost.

I too am offended by the idea that males can be reclassified as females based on their inner feelings, medical/surgical treatments, or lifestyle choices (clothes etc). I think this is a serious imposition on women's rights, actually, it is erasure of our bodies and specific needs and experiences.

I wonder how seriously we would be taken if we reported all posts that refer to males/men as females/women based on these core feminist principles? My choice is not to report posts no matter how offensive I find them but instead to be as clear as I can when making arguments and observations. Maybe that is a bad choice if the squeaky wheel is setting the terms.

Person whose preferred pronoun is "she"

I think it would not be long before this too was reported as over the line.

Gosh just listened/ watched - Julia really was impressive and reminding IW that she'll use her own language was very interesting. And Justine was very clear too, well done.

"AAK - that's not right. That is taking away your ability to distinguish people by sex. Which is what the whole argument is about!!"

^JHB clearly distinguished the difference between male and female on that clip.

While I appreciate the challenges that 'misgendering' identifies, I try to think of the lurkers. If the first thing that someone new to these issues sees is women deliberately calling transgender people by their birth sex, then many people, especially if they're younger, will see this as rude and disrespectful. They will back out having had it confirmed that this site is full of women being transphobic.
It is perfectly possible to write using they or similar if wished. Many people use personal pronouns out of courtesy and kindness regardless of their personal beliefs. I really think we are missing the point if this becomes the issue that our arguments stand are fall on. For me, it isn't. I am far more concerned about self ID, safeguarding of children, abuse of the Equalities Act, women's sport etc. I want people to listen, engage and discuss, not back away because they see us as being offensive.

After all, we are asking for mutually respectful debate.