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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ooh step back, India Willoughby is going to penetrate the Mumsnet debate

999 replies

ALittleBitOfButter · 16/04/2018 02:21

Just saw on twitter that IW says will do radio interview about Mumsnet. Sorry can't link as on phone.

OP posts:
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Jayceedove · 17/04/2018 20:45

Supermatch, firstly, I am not 'being nice' so as to be 'accepted' on here.

I got quite less friendly comment when I first posted a month or so back. And was called he and male a few times, but chose not to regard it as abuse but as another person's opinion of a stranger chatting on a forum.

We form our views of others by interaction and what they say or do within that interaction. We look for signs of understanding and that we are gaining things as we appreciate why we each feel and think as we do.

Human relationships are about empathy and trying to see why others feel as they do, even if that is different from how you personally do. #

In fact most powerfully because that is how we learn to be a better person by absorbing the thoughts, feelings and experiences of others and appreciating the triumph of human spirit over adversity.

You can very easily blow all that apart by not trying to listen to other views or just telling them your truth as the one truth, the only truth.

Except, of course, it isn't. Because it is at least arguable that our biology is as important a part of who or what we are than is our mind or perception.

Being transgender, or transsexual, is complicated. I do not know how or why I have always been like this as far back as I can remember. I do not know if there is a physical cause or a social cause or a psychological cause or a mixture of them all.

Nor I suspect does anybody else. And there might not even just be one cause. I am increasingly of that view given the wide array of what being 'trans' is like I keep being told by the activists that I am not taking into account by just referring to transsexuals.

Yes, for me it is something deep and physical. But for others it is a nuance or an expression or an identification or a lifestyle choice and so on.

I have come to accept and see that, but also that these differences matter - not in the sense of having the right to live as yourself unhindered and with protection against real transphobia such as violence or discrimination - but in the sense that in certain circumstances a sense of safety in spaces matter more than identification.

So they change the equation.

This confusion of parts that make us who we are means we cannot just dictate to others what to believe. We are probably about the most mixed up in a physical and a psychological sense that any group of humans can be. So there are going to be differences of opinion as to how to define us.

There ARE differences of opinion even between those of us who are one kind of trans person versus another, so it is not even arguable that the rest of humanity with no direct experience of this will have them even more.

Idontdowindows · 17/04/2018 20:46

me and the Labour party, Green party, Liberals, legal system. NHS. Most universities

If all your friends jumped off a bridge, would you jump too?

RefuseToDenounceBiology · 17/04/2018 20:52

Yes Ereshkigal me and the Labour party, Green party, Liberals, legal system. NHS. Most universities. Are we all in the wrong? I'll have a good think about that.

It might be worth looking into the combination of lobbying behind the scenes, taking advantage of technicalities, while dissenters have been harassed, silenced and prevented from meeting on the ground.

Doesn't really look like a broad base of popular support to me. I normally think of grassroots activism looking like people shouting out loud about what they do want, rather than strategically quashing all criticism - but hey - perhaps there is some kind of good intention behind this authoritarianism that I can't get my head around...

Winewinewinegin · 17/04/2018 20:53

and the Labour party, Green party, Liberals, legal system. NHS. Most universities

Yes, a lot of policies and proposals got pushed through without most people really realising what this might mean in practice 'when the rubber hit the road'. Most people here didn't realise at first either.

HerFemaleness · 17/04/2018 20:54

@supermatchgame, there are some cancers, blood cancers like leukemia, where the treatment differs depending on whether you are male or female. It's longer for males, it's something to do with having testicles.

Should a transwoman with a GRC who has the misfortune to have this disease be treated as a male or a female? Would you consider it a sensible choice if the transwoman were to insist on following the female treatment pathway?

HerFemaleness · 17/04/2018 20:55

For the purposes of the example, the transwoman has kept their sex organs intact.

Haidees · 17/04/2018 20:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Haidees · 17/04/2018 20:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Jayceedove · 17/04/2018 20:58

Supermatch - As trans people we are looking for support and help from those around us. Much of the time that is exactly what we get. But it is not an outrage that it is harder for some than others or that it is against someone's philosophy or religious view or simply their opinion that science dictates how they perceive reality.

We are the ones who are challenging the basis of what to many is their whole life experience and it is particularly unfair to insist or demand that what we think or believe must be held above their view and that anyone who disagrees must therefore be abusing us.

It is no more abusive for someone to think that my biology is essentially male. Because objectively it is. It would be unfair of me to them if I were to insist, well, yes, that argument is correct but does not matter because this science must just be incomplete in order to match what I believe is true.

Who is right here? You cannot say we definitely are. So one view cannot be real and the other abuse. Both are at most equally valid.

So why insist that our perception be more important than anybody elses?

What others think of us that you might see as vile, is an honestly held position that I simply accept as their valid way to view what we are.

It is easier to not believe in miracles and fairy tales because that way you can live in the real world as a happier person, not constantly striving for what cannot yet be and happily enjoying what can now be.

And to do so whilst not angering others who have their doubts and concerns over who we are is a very good place to start building that happier future.

Which is, surely, the reason anyone wants to transition. To be a better, more pleasant, well integrated and positively contributing member of society.

If transition instead becomes a passport to fighting the world then that makes me wonder if it really was the right step to take.

And it certainly makes me sure that all who seek to have the world redefine our status, sometimes against what others believe about that same world, must expect to do more than demand respect from others. Or else.

You just have to roll with reasonable opinions contrary to your own and try not to do it yourself in reply, because in the end it does not help anyone if we just dissolve into anger.

RosenbergW · 17/04/2018 21:04

"Rocky Horror creator Richard O’Brien has caused controversy by speaking out against transgender women.
...
..speaking to the Metro this week, O’Brien weighed in on controversy surrounding feminist author Germaine Greer’s anti-trans comments.
Greer claimed last year: “Just because you lop off your d*k and then wear a dress doesn’t make you a f**ing woman.”
Speaking to the Metro, O’Brien weighed in on “feminists [who] say that because someone has surgery that doesn’t make them a woman”
He added: “I think I agree with that. I agree with Germaine Greer and Barry Humphries. You can’t be a woman. You can be an idea of a woman."

I won't bother linking to pink news. They weren't happy though.

/Rocky Horror tangent

Ereshkigal · 17/04/2018 21:04

I'll have a good think about that.

Do. And while you're there have a think about women's rights, you know, the subject of this board?

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 17/04/2018 21:05

I love Richard O'Brien!! I saw the RHPS in the 80s as a kid and have been a bit of a fan girl since then.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 17/04/2018 21:06

How did I miss that Rosen?

Off to google

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 17/04/2018 21:08

Ok I'm linking

www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/03/08/rocky-horror-star-richard-obrien-trans-women-cant-be-women/

It's old!

RunRabbitRunRabbit · 17/04/2018 21:09

In the past, most institutions agreed that black people should be treated as lesser, that women should not be employed once married, that being homosexual was unnatural and should rightfully be illegal. They were wrong. They all agreed, the law said they were right but they were all wrong.

Laws are made by people. Sometimes people make bad laws. Sometimes people make laws with good intentions that have huge negative unintended comsequences (Prohibition for example).

People think, debate, observe and then our laws evolve to be better.

Personally, I think laws that say people can change sex are bad laws, in desperate need of a robust public debate.

Trousersdontmakemeaman · 17/04/2018 21:09

Thank you JayCee for your wise words as ever.

Jayceedove · 17/04/2018 21:14

Herfemaleness, if a trans person right now has a GRC they will have to be on the medical records and being treated as a trans man or woman. That involves regular blood tests.

It involves a mixture of sex specific tests, too. Such as mammograms and blood tests.

Trans women who have had surgery and limited testosterone are at very low risk of any prostrate issues but blood tests are still done by your GP when T and E levels are assessed annually.

Jayceedove · 17/04/2018 21:15

Of course, if self ID comes in then that might mean it becomes a free choice to put your health at risk in case your GP abuses you by giving you a 'male' test.

SupermatchGame · 17/04/2018 21:15

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth
Do you cwy about it? Do you? Diddums!

..and the true bully in you finally comes out for all to see.

Busted.

R0wantrees · 17/04/2018 21:15

and the Labour party, Green party, Liberals, legal system. NHS. Most universities
are I think the main areas where hopefully people will start to be able to question some of the impacts of policies and legislation which have not been properly considered or scrutinised.

ALittleAubergine · 17/04/2018 21:17

Could someone please kindly tl;dr for me the mn fwr position on trans men and women? So even if you have surgery and go through a full transition, you cannot and should not be considered anything other than either your birth sex or a trans person? I think I deffo missed on all the other threads, I thought the issue was just self-id rather than anything else?

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 17/04/2018 21:18

This reply has been deleted

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RosenbergW · 17/04/2018 21:19

In bizarro world a little mocking is bullying but trying to intimidate women into silence about facts and reality is protecting the vulnerable.

"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them."
Comes to mind.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 17/04/2018 21:20

This reply has been deleted

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RosenbergW · 17/04/2018 21:21

Busted

He said I've been to the year 3000
Not much has changed but they live under water
And your great great great granddaughter
Is a man

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