Ooh step back, India Willoughby is going to penetrate the Mumsnet debate

[ALittleBitOfButter]

Just saw on twitter that IW says will do radio interview about Mumsnet. Sorry can't link as on phone.

I just see India as a rent-a-gob, a Katie Hopkins.

Exactly. If someone can't even cope with relatively polite disagreement on the internet/radio then what's going to happen when the postman says "oy, mate" instead of "hello, miss"? What about when a toddler "misgenders" you on the bus? If people can still tell that you were born male then some of them will comment on it, and women will talk about their experiences in ways that remind you that your experiences are different. This is inevitable. Are you going to fight the whole world forever in the hopes of imposing your view of reality on them?

It's a recipe for a miserable life, and people should stop encouraging it.

I just listened and IW said - to which JHB replied ok I will go and have a look at this and we'll talk about it tomorrow - that the I am Spartacus thread was "outing people as transgender".

Was it??

I just skimmed through it and saw " A man cannot become a woman, Paris Lees, Alex Drummond etc. are men".... but these people were in the public eye as transgender, right? Which is how everyone knew they are male? And MNers weren't outing them but were refusing to call males "women". Or am I missing something?

Ok had a listen.

It think to a degree the piece summed up pretty where the "debate" is at.

On one hand a fairly hardline activist makes a series of sweeping statements that they fail to substantiate and/or deliberately dismiss the nuances of the argument, then repeatedly tries to stop anyone responding to those points by speaking over them and interrupting.

On the other we have women making factual, evidential based points, stressing the importance of debate and being shut down.

The piece was very much biased to India wrt air time. Not that I think that was the intention.

All I hope is that people new to this debate can see what's happening here and exactly why the stand taken by MN is so important.

The only possible way I can see that as outing would be if someone saw Drummond and quite reasonably thought "that man is wearing a skirt", and then someone else said "actually Alex identifies as a woman", and that possibility had never occurred to the first person because of course he's a man ffs has everyone lost their damn minds?

It's interesting though how what should be a serious discussion about how small lobbyists have tried to exert pressure on a major internet platform becomes instead about one person and their opinions.

A lot of it is a distraction but also, the serious issue remains about any discussion /concern becomes centred on either the 'trans' issue or the individual who is part of the transgender community....

Thank you for links & reviews I shall look forward to listening tonight

I feel bad for the transexuals being represented to the public by IW.

I also noticed all the unknown names popping up on the thread about Justine in the Times - it was very heartening to read.

*sorry should say a small group of lobbyists!

Yes I didn't understand IW's comment that the Spartacus threads were outing people either.

@DontCisgenderMe - excellent description of the interview.

Just managed to listen. I think all involved managed to make our points very well

The 'listening to Doctors' preference expressed by India is worth considering as under the 'transgender umbrella' are some activists robustly challenging Drs roles and also calling for instant/ self-cert access to hormones etc.
Similarly in some aspects the Mermaids' affirmation approach can seen at odds with Dr Polly Carmichael / Tavistock Clinic.

Just listened, thought Justine and JHB did an excellent job.
Hope JHB finds it interesting here... look forward to her further thoughts on girl guiding tomorrow.

Are you going to fight the whole world forever in the hopes of imposing your view of reality on them?

This is the logical conclusion, isn't it? And it's so absurd that the political movement has to be as authoritarian as it is to achieve it. Free speech isn't allowed because people have this awful habit of referring to material reality.

I worry most for the young people. An important part of growing up is the gradual understanding that you are not the centre of the universe, that the world exists independently of you, and that it won't always concern itself with your validation. This is a necessary step towards maturity and being able to operate in the world at large.

We're bringing up a generation of kids whose identities are so fragile, they will never be self sufficient.

it's so absurd that the political movement has to be as authoritarian as it is to achieve it. Free speech isn't allowed because people have this awful habit of referring to material reality

What I can't figure out is whether gender identity has genuinely come to be seen as so important that free speech is acceptable collateral damage, or whether in fact this is primarily a crisis of free speech which happens to be playing out with respect to gender issues.

This sounds fabulous. India is a quite idiotic one trick pony. Loved Jaycee's post.

India Willoughby is an idiot. Listening now.

And MNers weren't outing them but were refusing to call males "women". Or am I missing something?

It's another way language is being distorted and losing all meaning. To a reasonable person outing an individual would mean revealing information on their sexual orientation or gender identity which is not publicly known. This happened quite recently, a young man was revenge outed by his former lover who works for the PM, it was something to do with Brexit.

If the mention of those particular trans people on the thread is 'outing' them, this puts a completely different meaning on the word. Outing now means that prominent activists and news personalities who have become prominent by being transgender can claim to have been 'outed' if the fact they're transgender happens to be mentioned on an internet forum, even though they have talked about transitioning and the knowledge they're transgender is in the public domain.

It's like an attempt to claim intellectual property rights over the fact of their transgender identity. If they're not the ones controlling the information flow then any mention of it is an 'outing'. Similar to those people who announce engagements or pregnancies over Facebook and then get pissy when random non-Facebook people congratulate them ''how dare they know, I didn't tell them!''.

Paris Lees is basically trans for a living, though. It's all Paris writes about, or talks about. Anyone who googles the name "Paris Lees" will know that Paris is trans because Paris never stops talking about it. How do you out someone who outs themselves in every single article?

There is nothing of the kind that India is talking about when you type in transgender. Nothing. India is a lying idiot.

Yes, Paris Lees said they used to be a boy right in the first paragraph of their essay about why it's liberating and nice for women to be harrassed on the street.

What I can't figure out is whether gender identity has genuinely come to be seen as so important that free speech is acceptable collateral damage, or whether in fact this is primarily a crisis of free speech which happens to be playing out with respect to gender issues.

I think the SJW left has always been authoritarian, so gender issues are simply part of the overall culture. It's I identify as good and pure and therefore anything I say is correct even if it is arrant nonsense, and I get to speak for you whether you like it or not.

And I think people with fragile identities - whether the identity is about gender or something else - lash out rather than acknowledge that fragility, so that, as well as the usual toxic masculinity on display, plays into the aggression we see.

It's a perfect storm really.

All the shit about 'if it was about black people it wouldn't be allowed' is really annoying.

The equivalent would be if MN site that was for and by w.o.c, and had a lot of threads about their misgivings when white people claimed they were black and their blackness was a) the same as and b) also bizarrely more important than, the actual posters'.

Well, yes, if people were saying that black people shouldn't be allowed in women's changing rooms that would be ridiculous and offensive, because 50% of black people are women.

Bit of a crap analogy, eh?

Wow JHB was amazing! I loved when she said "women don't have penises" . Can't wait for her thoughts on the GG tomorrow.