Ooh step back, India Willoughby is going to penetrate the Mumsnet debate

[ALittleBitOfButter]

Just saw on twitter that IW says will do radio interview about Mumsnet. Sorry can't link as on phone.

There was also this www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2720620-Thoughts-on-MNHQs-response-to-the-Spartacus-thread?pg=1&order=

Justine and Mumsnet have really turned a corner since then. I suppose that was the first big neon sign that many many women on Mumsnet were leaning gender critical, it wasn't an extremist position at all, or confined to FWR. And then after that there was the issue with Paris Lees being invited to speak at a Mumsnet event, and lots of evidence being shown as to why Paris (of all possible trans identifying people!) was a terrible choice because of their proud and unapologetic misogyny in their own articles and tweets. These must have been revealing moments. Top that off with trans activists targetting Justine and Mumsnet's advertisers with blatant lies and aggression.. I think Mumsnet herself has peaked?

It was just hard to follow wasn't it? Because of all the interrupting.

One thing that I noticed, and was concerned by, was that India said "I listen to Doctors...." (as opposed to listening to JHB).

Most doctors aren't able to have a public voice in this debate and so they can be quoted and misquoted at will - misrepresented and used as a football.

"I listen to the doctors who tell me what I want to hear"

There you go, India, fixed that for you.

Mumsnet has listened. Like the rest of us who had previously thought this was 'the new Gay' issue.

We have listened to reasoned, compelling arguments from articulate posters.

And we have chosen the path of science, logic and reasonableness. We choose the path of decent behavior and not allowing women's rights to be trampled on by people who call us bigots for acknowelging that it is our biology that caused us to be discriminated against for centuries.

Ah brilliant! Thanks for links to both the Spartacus threads and to talkRadio

India always talks over women. Look at how she treated Karen IW on the news.

JHB wasn't having it though. Good for her

The recent BMJ article is clear evidence that some doctors are concerned about ensuring evidence-based medical practice in this area.

JHB's daughter is a guide? Has anyone tweeted and asked her to add her name to the open letter..?

JHB has nailed her colours to the mast there with the ‘women don’t have penises’ statement. Fabulous.

I’ll be interested to see what backlash she gets for that.

Thank you. Can you link?

I am sure that absolutely every doctor is concerned.

It's absolutely reasonable that a couple of year 6 girls might say "oh, she has a girl brain in a boy body") as a way of helping each other to explain a child's otherwise incomprehensible behaviour.

But we are grown adults.

Justine was fab.

I loved JHB telling IW that IW doesn't get to tell JHB which words she is allowed to use.

IW demanding examples from JHB of instances where teenage boys have been sexual predators was comical.

FFS my dad, like millions of dads around the country, was warning me at 14 to never ever trust teenage boys in potentially sexual situations because in those situations they think with the contents of their pants not their brains nor their hearts "Believe me, I know, I used to be one." To be fair, he also said that they usually get a lot better by the time they are 25. Anyone listening will be laughing at IW denying that teenage boys can be sexual predators.

Apparently things everyone knows to be true and have experienced personally are now false.

I do so hope people come on here searching for Spartacus and transgender.

I'd like to thank India. I knew a bit about MN 'I'm Spartacus' but had never read the threads so it is much appreciated having links within the thread.
I think a lot of people will see the comments and issues within the threads in a different way than perhaps India hopes though.

Prove that some teenage boys are sexual predators? Has India ever actually spoken to a woman and listened to her responses?

India specialises in own goals.

I'm so tired of these men thinking that wishful thinking is reality. It's destroying women's spaces in all aspects.

Yeah angry, but also IW didn't even need to talk to women to know that teenage boys can be sexual predators. Ask a group of men. They'll tell you no problem in no uncertain terms.

Wow. That interview has got to be one of the most spectacular TRA own goals ever.

Bravo to JHB and Justine!!

It is on at 22.10 minutes after 9am on the website.

I would love to know how India thought it was going to go?

Had she played it in her mind?

Well done India. In just a few minutes you gave the listeners a lovely display of aggression as you shouted angrily over women speaking; defamed Mumsnet and its users; objected to women having opinions; dismissed women's concerns outright; stated that women can have penises; were incensed at women who do not want to share a sleeper cabin with a born male stranger and saw no problems with girls sleeping/undressing/washing alongside boys.

I'm glad you've made it clear that you are angry when women object to the presence of someone with a penis when they are getting undressed. I'm glad that you've made it clear that you don't think women's boundaries should be respected. I'm glad that you've made it clear that you think that a man's wishes are more important than a woman's. I am glad that you've made it clear that you are angry when women say no.

This will have been a big help to anyone listening who was unaware of this debate, or believed that a transwoman refers to someone who has fully, surgically transitioned and is quietly getting on with her life.

Thank you for letting them know that they can discuss any concerns they may have about this on here.

Thank you. Can you link?

Does anyone have a link to the BMJ article? I think there was a thread on it.

One could almost feel sorry for India after making such a arse of (insert pronoun)self.

Not really- thanks for showing us what you really are. We see you and we know.

India, if she had really been reading MN as she implies, would know that there ARE trans people on here having a reasonable debate and not being bullied. Several of us.

Interesting that she does not seem to either know that or reflect on what it means.

The problem is that we do not agree with some of the assumptions she is making and why some of the things being proposed are a genuine concern and threat to women - so ought to be discussed on a women's forum.

There is a myth out there that this is full of rabid transphobia. Yes, it is full of strong opinions. But that is what debate is. You listen to the arguments and you decide what is the best thing to do based on giving them a fair hearing.

It takes a few days to adjust to some of the adamant expression about trans people on here. If you unable to take being called something other than you believe it is like a cold shower on a frosty morning. But if you wilt at the first sign of the word man or male then it rather demonstrates why self ID is a bad idea.

Because the assessment and discussions with doctors and psychiatrists are partly there as gatekeeping to ensure you are realistic about how your life will change and that you have the mental fortitude to face such a major thing as changing gender identity permanently.

The two year delay is there to make sure you know you are happy, have not made a mistake, realise it will not all be wine and roses and that you can cope with any setbacks without going into meltdown.

So if you cannot be on MN and have a civil discussion without running away because someone called you a man then, sorry, you really need to have a cup of tea, a long hard think and ask yourself - is changing gender for the rest of my life really for me.

And start to understand why just expecting society to change because you want it to instead of you doing some compromising and rethinking too is rather arrogant and demanding.

You might even begin to see that there is sense in some of these 'horrible women' and their 'phobic demands'.

Come on here India and talk this over in a calm and reasoned manner.

If you believe what you say, convince us. Don't run away. That is not a good message to send out.

Teenage boy arrested for the murder of Viktorija Sokolova

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/15/teenage-boy-charged-with-of-viktorija-sokolova

There you go India Willoughby.

India 'allows' debate but only on the terms and conditions India sees fit.

Justine struck exactly the right tone I thought. Calm, sensible, stuck to talking about women's rights and women's rights to debate. What a contrast to IW. JHB did a great job of acting as a buffer between IW and Justine so IW couldnt easily talk over others, at least not without it being obviously poor show and being called out on it.