Ooh step back, India Willoughby is going to penetrate the Mumsnet debate

[ALittleBitOfButter]

Just saw on twitter that IW says will do radio interview about Mumsnet. Sorry can't link as on phone.

I thinking correctly noting the sex of a specific person maybe deleted but correctly noting the sex of a group is ok? Is that right?

When they go low we go high

Thanks for the reminder Wine because I was wondering what happened to that.

Do you not get that society is constantly evolving and progressing?

Except that sometimes things go backwards. Like women's rights, for example.

Forcing women to lie is not going high.

super I'm interested in your thoughts on the law as you've mentioned it a few times. It is good to hear different viewpoints.

In which circumstances do you feel it is correct for the law to say a transwoman should be treated as if she is a biological female and in which circumstances should she be treated as not a biological female?

SupermatchGame

JC has stuck to these threads doggedly. I have disagreed with her on numerous occasions. I also understand exactly where she's coming from. And yes, I use she.

Because I'm not a fucking knob.

This isn't, and never, ever has been about individuals. And going out of one's way to piss them off to make a point.

JC is male. JC knows this. JC doesn't want to be reminded of it.

We all get that. We also get that JC understands our position. JC has considerable affinity with women and their objections.

We reserve the right to say it as it is, and, JC has an expectation that, on an individual level, we will be kind.

But it's courtesy, not entitlement that is key.

RunRabbitRunRabbit: You feel it is not OK to call a male bodied person "him" if that person wishes to be called "her".

Other people feel it is not OK to be required to call a male bodied person "her" because it is a lie.

Why is one point of view more valid than the other?

A gay couple want a wedding cake.
Baker feels it is ok to refuse because being gay is morally wrong.
Why is one point of view more valid than the other?
www.cbc.ca/news/world/us-supreme-court-gay-wedding-baker-1.4433682

Gay couple want to stay in b&b
B&B owner feels gay acts are wrong - says so in the bible and we've had the bible for thousands of years.
Why is one point of view more valid than the other?
www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-23240113

Woman wants abortion
Catholic says it's not ok. Once it was illegal. Now it isn't.
Why is one point of view more valid than the other?

Run your question is a good one.

It is. I've done my best to answer it.

Idontdo

Think it's more a case of "they goad low, we go high" (by not rising)

Idontdowindows
I smell MRA
I smell something. Someone open a window.

But what IS "going high"? Cause so far I've only seen "we go high" being used as tone policing and apparently we have to be nice about everyone and call men "she".

That's not going high. That's forcing us to lie.

Someone open a window.

Butbut... I don't DO windows!

bewilderness
"the sex which shall not be named"

Honestly, piss off the the 'going high' bollocks.

You're not our mums

We aren't debating those topics here. We were debating misgendering with you. Can you explain to me why you feel misgendering is worse than being required to lie? I am genuinely interested in your logic.

Pretty sure that law designed for the workplace isn't applicable in other situations.

I think Maria M proved that this week, unless she was dragged off in contempt and charged with a hate crime, and somehow I missed that part of the story?

The lies people will tell when they want their own way!

Datun
Human rights are not a courtesy.

You would say her. Many on here wouldn't. And sometimes I just think well so what. You can't change the entire world. And I don't feel the need to. I was engaging in debate as I wanted to contribute and I see a lot of misinformation and prejudice here, which makes me sad.

Saying 'JC is male' puts you on very dodgy ground. If JC is legally female then what you have stated is just wrong. That legal status isn't based on biology. What you have said is potentially an offence and would be challenged in real life. You aren't making Mumsnet's life any easier either.

Butbut... I don't DO windows!

You just made me lol on the train so thanks for that!

That's not the first time I've seen either abortion and homophobia co opted to support a transactivist victimhood claim.

I remember in unpleasant specimen describing abortion as cis privilege tbh.

Saying 'JC is male' puts you on very dodgy ground. If JC is legally female then what you have stated is just wrong. That legal status isn't based on biology.

No, it is a legal fiction. It does not apply where certain exemptions are used, both to the GRA and within the EA. The law recognises that MTF are biologically male.

This is real life. We are real. Dear oh dear.

Other people feel it is not OK to be required to call a male bodied person "her" because it is a lie.

Indeed. It is oppressive to engage in enforced pretending. It is makes you feel like a fraud or some kind of low-level sycophantic courtier pandering to an unhinged monarch.

Freedom of thought and naming reality is vital in order to know yourself to be free.

Who are these people to feel entitled to rob others' freedom like that?

It's not a human right to force someone to lie hth

Because if someone is legally one sex and you refer to them as that sex then it isn't a lie.

A woman adopts a child. Biologically speaking they are not their mother. But legally they are that child's mother. It took a law to enshrine something that is normally a biological role into a legal role. But you wouldn't call that a lie. Would you say that is a fair analogy?

You ask a valid question. I'm not sure I am qualified to answer it any more fully than I have tried. It would be interesting to get the view of the mental health professionals who run gender clinics and see how they would answer that.

Indeed. It is oppressive to engage in enforced pretending. It is makes you feel like a fraud or some kind of low-level sycophantic courtier pandering to an unhinged monarch.

That is a perfect description. And many of them insist on it for exactly that reason. It's a power game.