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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Ooh step back, India Willoughby is going to penetrate the Mumsnet debate

999 replies

ALittleBitOfButter · 16/04/2018 02:21

Just saw on twitter that IW says will do radio interview about Mumsnet. Sorry can't link as on phone.

OP posts:
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9
SupermatchGame · 16/04/2018 22:39

Pratchet Is that swooping in, crapping and swooping out? I'm sorry :/

I'm not sure who you're referring to. But no crapping and swooping from me.

Having just lost the last 2 hours though I am now off to bed.

Trousersdontmakemeaman · 16/04/2018 22:39

I do my best.

Night.

OvaHere · 16/04/2018 22:40

Yes you point it out. You don't campaign and post with the same passion as you do about opposing trans people's rights. Or are you defending women's rights... I forget which.

My point was that other people do indeed have labels applied which they aren't thrilled about. It's not exclusive to people with gender feelings. I, along with many women, don't like the imposition of the word cis either but it doesn't stop TRA's using it with assumed authority.

I don't oppose trans peoples rights and as far as I'm aware they have the full raft of human rights that everyone else in the UK has. I just don't agree that people should be able to self identify as the opposite sex because that has negative implications for women's rights.

TIMoPLOP · 16/04/2018 22:40

Is there a way to hide a poster on here so we don't have to look at their posts? If not, could such a thing be created?

Janie143 · 16/04/2018 22:41

I get your point AAK but we need to find a way to say things without risking MN

Trousersdontmakemeaman · 16/04/2018 22:42

Stuck with the seagulls until you stop feeding them.

LangCleg · 16/04/2018 22:44

I agree that randomly walking up to a transwoman and saying "oy, you're a bloke" would be rude and pointlessly unkind. I would not do that.

You know what? I cringed when I read that. Because I know it contains compelled speech.

If MNHQ want to ban the word male, I'll need an alternative that does not contain the word woman. Because I'm not using it.

Sorry.

RosenbergW · 16/04/2018 22:44

I don't like using the term 'trans woman' to refer to a male person because it is a confusing contradiction. They are not a woman and they can never be a woman. Adding a prefix to woman like that suggests they can be. In my view it is grossly misogynist to say a man can become a woman by declaration or surgery or costume.

Further the 'general public' as I have experienced it does not understand the term, and often get confused as to whether a trans woman is a man who claims to be a woman or a woman who claims to be a man. Terms like MTF and FTM are far more common but I don't think they are good terms either for the same reason (misogyny) as above.

I am prepared not to use gendered pronouns at all for people who id as trans, but I can't see how it is possible to discuss the power dynamics between the sexes without observing that some people are male and some people are female.

RosenbergW · 16/04/2018 22:48

That changes my willingness to engage with you.
Oh. Is that my loss, or yours?
It is your loss. Thebewilderness has been posting feminist wisdom on the Internet for many years and we are privileged to have her experience here on these threads.

AngryAttackKittens · 16/04/2018 22:51

I am prepared not to use gendered pronouns at all for people who id as trans, but I can't see how it is possible to discuss the power dynamics between the sexes without observing that some people are male and some people are female.

Thank you, that was much clearer than my waffly attempts to say the same thing.

Having to say "transwoman" feels like backsliding right when we were starting to make some progress. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I should just shut up, who knows. I appreciate someone from MNHQ actually attempting to clarify for me, because the line wasn't at all clear before. Now I know where it is though, what if I disagree with where it's been set? Just bugger off voluntarily (this was implied in the email we got after the last round of comment deletions, "consider if mumsnet may not be the place for you", etc)? Is this a thing that we can discuss with MNHQ, or is it take it or leave it? Will they tell us why they're choosing to set the line there? Is that in fact policy, or does each mod decide where the line is for them and delete/correspond accordingly?

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 16/04/2018 22:51

There is a whole new world of vocabulary to be made up here.

Ans noone wants to use it

thebewilderness · 16/04/2018 22:53

They cannot possible expect us to refer to them as penis people, can they?

RosenbergW That is very kind of you.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 16/04/2018 22:57

I'm prepared to be polite and subtle and all that but I'm not prepared to say that I think male people are female.

When it comes to transsexuals I'll cheerfully avoid the issue altogether. But we have to be able to say (think!) that people with AGP and working penises are male, and that self-identifying male athletes are male and that opportunistically self-iding sex offenders are male. That is the whole point!

Melamin · 16/04/2018 22:57

The trouble I have with trans woman is that I thought it was a woman that was transgender until I caught up and found it was the other way around. I am sure I am not the only one out there, and expect it is totally normal in the wider world.

Then you end up having conversations where one is talking about one thing, and the other another, then they get muddled about which way round it is and switch half way through.

And that is before you even start on what the definition of transgender might be.

AngryAttackKittens · 16/04/2018 23:03

That's the thing, Melamin. Part of the reason I prefer very simple, straightforward language is that it cuts through the fog of deliberately confusing waffle in a way that makes it easier for people to understand what's actually happening and why it might be a thing some women are worried about. So, male. Everyone understands what that means. Female, also. There are words we could replace those words with, but they're less clear, and those words too may later be targeted as offensive and unacceptable. The goalposts move all the time. So why not just stick to simple, clear, easy for anyone reading to understand?

Melamin · 16/04/2018 23:10

It would certainly make conversations easier. Not only is it about sex Shock but you are fumbling around for the right word that says what you want it to say, as well as finding the right word that is acceptable in polite society, without offending anyone who knows the 'right' words and will jump on you.

Melamin · 16/04/2018 23:12

Normally I would stick to biological terms, but that is not possible.

AngryAttackKittens · 16/04/2018 23:14

So yeah anyway, getting late in the day so if I'm gone by morning - love you all, keep going, you're making a difference.

Pickleshickles · 16/04/2018 23:18

Bloody hell if I'd have known it was illegal to use the wrong name and pronouns I'd have had my inlaws done years ago! I've had Mrs Husbands Name on every card since we got married despite being Ms Birth Name since I was born!

SmurfNotTerff · 16/04/2018 23:25

Don't forget to listen to JHB tomorrow.
She's discussing the Guides, and her daughter is one

thebewilderness · 16/04/2018 23:55

Stuck with the seagulls until you stop feeding them.
Even after all these years I am still a sucker for trolls gulls and sealions. Sorry.

Tanith · 16/04/2018 23:56

“If MNHQ want to ban the word male, I'll need an alternative that does not contain the word woman. Because I'm not using it.”

Faymale? Or is that offensive?

I’m truly struggling to keep up with what is offensive and what is not Confused

Ereshkigal · 16/04/2018 23:56

If MNHQ want to ban the word male, I'll need an alternative that does not contain the word woman. Because I'm not using it.

Me neither.

Ereshkigal · 17/04/2018 00:00

Supermatch, I am not sure you even need a GRC to get an F on your passport.

You don't apparently. This surprised me when I heard. You just need a letter from your doctor I think.

CircleSquareCircleSquare · 17/04/2018 00:02

But it does, in fact, have the ability to change a person's legal sex. And our rights are those that are enshrined in law

So in an emergency situation do I comply with the law or acquiesce to the biological facts that will save their life?