Ooh step back, India Willoughby is going to penetrate the Mumsnet debate

[ALittleBitOfButter]

Just saw on twitter that IW says will do radio interview about Mumsnet. Sorry can't link as on phone.

Don't forget to listen to JHB tomorrow.
She's discussing the Guides, and her daughter is one

I hope she's maybe read some of this discussion and sees what we're up against.

I think she’ll have got the measure of it from Twitter. TRAs are posting all manner of MN stuff and everyone else is saying ‘eh?’

Finally managed to listen - excellent! Not sure JHB even needed Justine there at all. IW was quite incoherent; I wonder if IW really believes what IW was saying about transphobia on here? If not then sending people here was clearly a massive error....

From reading the JHB thread it appears that the #nodebate stance has backfired.

By higher profile, and arguably more articulate TRAs refusing to debate, lunatics like the ones on the JHB thread are becoming the prominent faces of trans activism, at least on Twitter.

Would any of the following work as descriptors (for posters and mnet)

Biological male
Natal male
Person born male
Biologically male transperson
Transwoman who still has a penis
Trans identifying male
Man who wants to live as a woman

Victims of male aggression do not owe their oppressors politeness and to attempt to enforce said politeness is to align oneself with the aggressor and oppressor

This is exactly it. It's enabling bullying.

Can't we just adapt the Green Party strategy and have women and non-women? Imagine the furore.....

Women and non women! Perfect!

I had taken to saying female women in an effort to be clear.

Providing a link to my Green Party comment (being aware of how scrutinised and screenshot comments are nowadays!)
www.independent.co.uk/voices/i-wont-be-referred-to-as-non-male-by-the-green-party-women-have-suffered-prejudice-because-of-their-a6967926.html

and of course, should have said female and non-female!

I love the terms women / female and non-women / non-female. That is perfect.

As always, I'm late to the party, but I did RTFT, and feeling sick about the potential loss of posters.

I have gained so much from the discussions on FC. Like everyone else I love Datun's calm intelligent well articulated posts, they are brilliant. I've been ill and therefore tired most of my life, so I really love calm. (FC has not been good for my stress levels!)

However, I want to give a shout out to @AngryAttackKitten , @thebewilderness , and @LangCleg for the difference they have made in my life. There have been times when their feisty posts have made me or , but their determination, passion and anger made me challenge my own behaviour and beliefs.

I've never placed much value on myself. I know my family/friends do, but I just never have, everyone else's needs and importance always came before mine. These women made me realizing how essential it is for me to value myself.

So although you have come under fire at different times for your posts, please know that the time and effort you are putting in researching and posting is very much appreciated and incredibly inspiring. Thank you all so very much

We know you're in the hot seat MNHQ, and we appreciate all you've done. No bans please.

I want to try an experiment here.

Prior to becoming a transwoman, India Willoughby was a man named Jonathan Willoughby. Jonathan had a media presence, so this is a matter of public record.

I believe this is relevant here because India Willoughby was a man for far longer than she has been a transwoman. Listening to her shout over Julia Hartley-Brewer and try to enforce language choices on Julia yesterday seemed to me to be behaviour that stemmed from male socialisation and was in stark contrast to Justine Roberts respectful contributions.

Lets see what the frantic reporters / mods make of that.

Thank goddess for this conversation - I thought it was only me getting targeted. I too got a comment deleted and an email from MNHQ - I imagined I was getting punished for crossing a couple of trolls yesterday who no doubt reported me. I have asked for further clarification as to what was so wrong - calling IW male or saying why did mainstream media keep asking men to comment on women's issues.

Referring me to 2 threads of 1000 comments each, one of which I posted was not only unhelpful but the threats to ban if I transgressed once more (this was my first "offence") was as insulting as it was shocking. . It was also trauma uninformed. Many women here have been raised in abuse or the target of an intimate male abuser. Care needs to be especially taken here with language that will re-traumatise.

I do not post to provoke. I speak my truth. I already moderate my anger through years of patriarchal conditioning. I am not the problem here. No doubt the trolls are having a field day but again that is about smart moderation, not coercively controlling the innocent and the targets.

I had decided to probably leave MN if my well-being was at stake, so I was relieved to find others in the same boat.

@DonkeySkin Language mediates reality - absolutely - spot on.

@AngryAttackKittens Don't leave - we both know Cluster Bs are at play here - I need your company :)

Please no one leave -there's an important principle here, that Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro amongst others are also standing up for - free speech. Language matters. Telling the truth matters.

The tide is turning - the truth is outing. The Grassroots Conservatives are now complaining (see www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3223785-Conservatives-not-on-board-with-transgender-policy). I imagine those who object are on their last stand and firing both barrels. They will be trying to undermine here using covert tactics like reporting, sealioning and so on. Standing firm on the moral high ground of the truth is what matters. It divides us from totalitarianism.

@R0wantrees
Can't we just adapt the Green Party strategy and have women and non-women? Imagine the furore…..

I'll agree to that - women i.e. biological women, and others - works fine for me - and very congruent with MN branding as well

(Hugs SecretsRSecrets)

Many women are made to feel that they're not worth much, if not by their own families as children then by the larger society around them. It's not and never has been true. Women are wonderful. Ever hear the old Mao quote about women holding up half the sky? Honestly, he was significantly understating things there.

I know that some of the more overtly radfem among us can seem a bit abrasive or even scary sometimes if that's not something you're used to being around, but never doubt how deeply committed we are to the happiness and wellbeing of other women, and how firmly we'll have your back if and when you ever need it.

One women alone is incredibly vulnerable to the techniques that TRAs have consistently used to enforce #nodebate, but the reality is that it's never just one woman. There are millions of us, and they can't silence us all.

Agree with melamin that trans woman is a confusing term for those new to the debate. I saw this on debates on Twitter and news media re guides where lots of people thought a transgirl was an XX girl who identified as a boy. For many people the chromosomal sex is the starting point and main descriptor which is logical. I prefer M to f transsexual as is clearer. I dislike the term trans used for children though as I think they should be free to experiment with dress etc without being pigeon holed. Boys wearing dresses and rejecting aggressive masculinity are still boys.
I worry a lot of children want to be the other gender to escape stereotypes they dislike in their own sex or abuse they have suffered due to their sex.

If MNHQ want to ban the word male, I'll need an alternative that does not contain the word woman. Because I'm not using it.

non-biological female? NBF

But they're not female. That's lying just as much as saying woman.

I keep saying this.

No biological male can "feel like a woman". Only women can feel like women. It starts from birth and continues through life.

The most biological males can feel is "not male". They haven't experienced all the experiences that make us women and thus cannot possibly know how it feels to be a woman. They may want to be women but they don't really know what that is.

And a lot of men don't think "woman" is an actual thing, they think it's more of an absence of a thing. Man and Other.

Bless you, SecretsRSecrets. I suppose one person's rude is another person's consciousness-raising! Women and girls matter. You matter.

I am a fortunate woman in that I am not a survivor of domestic or sexual abuse. But I know women who are and I have volunteered at women's services. I've completed the Freedom Programme. I know how to identify male pattern abusive behaviour. I recognise toxic misogyny when I see it. Most of us do.

My problem with banning the word male is that I will not be able to name this behaviour if I see it - regardless of how the person exhibiting that behaviour identifies.

Just as #NAMALT also #NATALT - nobody is suggesting otherwise. But a vital tool in feminism is raising consciousness as Secrets movingly pointed out above. As feminists, we need to be able to clearly name patriarchal behaviour when we see it.

I would never gratuitously refer to a trans person as a man, here or IRL. I wouldn't be pejorative about appearance. I would not use masculine words out of spite or to hurt feelings and would actively avoid them wherever possible.

But there are occasions where I need to accurately describe behaviour as being male pattern rather than female pattern.