Ooh step back, India Willoughby is going to penetrate the Mumsnet debate

[ALittleBitOfButter]

Just saw on twitter that IW says will do radio interview about Mumsnet. Sorry can't link as on phone.

Jaycee I appreciate this is a difficult read

I think that subtly, when needed, is appropriate.

Personally I can, for the sake of the debate space, take that approach AAK.

Lung capacity is hugely different between the sexes, from puberty it seems. Its not affected by transitioning hormones to the extend of using a completely different peak flow chart if being treated for asthma. It's hugely different and easily found on google.

Have some chips super.

Is that swooping in, crapping and swooping out? I'm sorry :/

I agree that randomly walking up to a transwoman and saying "oy, you're a bloke" would be rude and pointlessly unkind. I would not do that.

(Generally. If they'd just been convicted of punching a pensioner in the face then I might.)

But stating quite dispassionately that a person is male and we can observe the ways in which their male socialization is influencing their behavior is not pointlessly cruel or goady. It's an absolutely key part of this conversation, and as long as women feel like they aren't allowed to admit that that's what they're seeing it's like wading through treacle. We need to be able to admit that we see what we see. Newbies need to see other women admitting that we see what they see too but are too scared to admit that they see yet.

Eh, I already ate a chocolate egg leftover from Easter, maybe a few less chips would be good for me.

Pratchet, I personally am fine with whatever you say or do as I have made clear.

I was only trying to help by offering a way that trans people would find hard to create a reasonable ground to dispute as being transphobic.

As for transsexual people speaking up earlier, I have been arguing against self ID since the plan first surfaced a couple of years ago and my stance on it has hardened the more I have engaged in wider discussion. And more and more transsexuals are waking up to what is happening.

The problem is, as I think you realise, we had our treatment. were cured of our dysphoria and just got on with our life quietly rather than created campaigns or became activists. We have come to see the scale of what is going on much like many of you have.

As I say, I am not trying to stop you saying what you want, just looking for ways that will help you do that and keep MN happy.

I am not in any way opposed to women's rights. I argue for women's rights. But that includes women who have been medically and legally transitioned. Thanks for that attempt to gaslight me, btw. Nice.

Transgender advocates have made it very clear that women's rights are anti trans.
This is not most of the peeps on MN position. It is the transgender lobbyists and advocates position.
Sorry for the confusion. Your snark is silly.

I agree that randomly walking up to a transwoman and saying "oy, you're a bloke" would be rude and pointlessly unkind. I would not do that.
Children do that oft times. Some have been assaulted for it.

Jaycee another excellent post. Thank you

But stating quite dispassionately that a person is male and we can observe the ways in which their male socialization is influencing their behavior is not pointlessly cruel or goady. It's an absolutely key part of this conversation

I agree 100% with this. A good deal of our concern around transwomen (sic) in women's spaces is because we see members of this group behaving exactly like the entitled and sexually aggressive men that those spaces are there to protect us from. If we can't talk about male socialisation or male entitlement then this becomes unspeakable.

OvaHere
Struck a nerve much?

No what makes you think you have?

We have had those discussions before on mumsnet and I do point it out to organisations or individuals (not always with success). I somehow think my MP would be less than interested in how my 75 year old MIL addresses my birthday cards.

Yes you point it out. You don't campaign and post with the same passion as you do about opposing trans people's rights. Or are you defending women's rights... I forget which.

Gee I wonder why women would think their safety and dignity is more important than what their gran writes on a Bday card? What do women want? It's a mystery.

zippy.gfycat.com/OrnateBetterDogwoodtwigborer.webm

The problem is the law created an ill thought out legal fiction that was only ever intended for a small number of people with the condition of gender dysphoria. It was never intended for bepenised, bearded male lesbians or Philip/Pippa Bunce who decides what gender they are when they wake up that morning.

Now the whole thing is a massive mess and as Jaycee says has forced many of the settled and anonymous transsexual people to start taking sides in a battle they never asked for.

Definitely defending women's rights that's why the determination!

Tallulah, I am not suggesting that you cannot talk about male socialisation. Just suggesting use of subtlety.

For instance, saying - for instance.... being a male that TIM will be in our spaces bossing us around because that is how he has been socialised as a boy and then a man.....

is going to seem very provocative to anyone looking in on this thread as it repeatedly singles out the maleness factor.

.....Whereas - not having been socialised as a female no trans women will understand the ways in which we interact with one another and why a male presence would be of such concern.

Says much the same without being personalised and provocative and so if a trans person over reacts to that they will be seen as being unreasonable.

That's all I am suggesting.

And it's a massive mess in Canada and the USA. So we need to get it right.

thebewilderness Transgender advocates have made it very clear that women's rights are anti trans.
This is not most of the peeps on MN position. It is the transgender lobbyists and advocates position. Sorry for the confusion. Your snark is silly.

Some transgender advocates. Not all. It is difficult when the rights of one oppressed group come into conflict with the rights of another oppressed group.

If by transgender you mean - any man that can self id as a woman and gain access to protected female spaces - then I'm not referring to them. I agree they should not have female rights, because they are male.

I'm talking about legally medically transitioned women who have the same rights as other women. Women's rights that seek to exclude those women would be anti-trans. I think that would be the legal and medical view would it not?

Let's all walk on eggshells, shall we?

Jaycee I didn't express my liking for you post enough earlier, I think what you've written is very sensible and sensitive.

Bed is calling.

You are hilarious Trousersdontmakemeaman

Me too. Got work in the morning. Night all.

Thank you Jaycee

Whereas - not having been socialised as a female no trans women will understand the ways in which we interact with one another and why a male presence would be of such concern.

That's a bit women are mystical unknowable beings, Jaycee. Maybe for someone more new age it wouldn't rub them as wrong, but it brings me out in "oh shit are they going to start talking about aurus next?" hives.

Also the point isn't so much the male person not knowing how women interact with each other as the female people knowing very well how male people often interact with us.

It is not my job to tell the difference and the law says there is none.
Women's rights are being undermined right now through the legal interpretation and application of the EA and the GRA.
These are facts.