Ooh step back, India Willoughby is going to penetrate the Mumsnet debate

[ALittleBitOfButter]

Just saw on twitter that IW says will do radio interview about Mumsnet. Sorry can't link as on phone.

I do appreciate actually getting a response to my request for clarification, so thanks for that, MNHQ.

Supermatch TRA's state its transphobic to imply that there are MH issues with trans people

Super it seemed to me that you must not have been here long if you do not know that we do indeed talk about being constantly referred to ans sub male.
So I checked. You came for this and this alone.
That changes my willingness to engage with you. Read the boards. Read the threads. I am not going to wast my time on the same arguments in opposition to women's rights people have been bringing here for years.

Pratchet Supermatch: there's no definition of woman in UK law, the man is not redefined as a woman: instead he is given the right to be treated legally as a woman.

That includes the right to an F on his passport.

There is a legal definition of female though. The male is redefined as female. And by constantly referring to such a person as he (and his passport) you would not be treating them legally as a woman. Sorry on re-reading I don't think what you said actually made sense.

You said there is no legal definition of woman.... and then go on to say that "he is given the right to be treated legally as a woman." I think that might be an oxymoron.

It is legally female that matters. There are certain rights and associated social and cultural mores that flow from that.

Bewilderness you are absolutely right that Super has come on here with the express intention of derailing the thread, which he/she is doing rather well.

Anyway, back to the topic of the thread - JHB is a legend (even if I disagree with most of her political views - though let it be noted that she is also fighting the good fight on the Windrush case). And IW's performance was basically a sequence of own-goals.

SmurfOrTerff fair enough. Transsexuality is still a psychiatrically diagnosable condition though isn't it? It is a psychiatrist that will either yay or nay a transition. Treatment is contingent on psychiatric and medical authorisation.

AAK
Avoid the word male? That's a different thing.

Unless we are to be deduced to 'penis havers' etc.

And the debate was...?

You know, this debate is always strange, but what now?

HairyBallTheorem started a new Spartacus thread here

What really strikes me is the difference between transwomen and the TRAs-
Transwomen who have gender dysphoria, who have been going about their business quietly for years,just getting on, and getting along side by side with women building up mutual respect for women as a class and transwomen as a class.

Now we have the TRAs who behave like socialised males, who have no interest in building up mutual respect, and have no respect for boundaries and they wonder why we don’t want people like that in our spaces?

So listen up TRAs: if you think you have a right to define a women’s boundaries for her then you have no right to a place amongst women.

I am finding this debate difficult from both the perspective of a transsexual woman and feeling your desperation not to be stopped from saying what you want.

So I have been trying to look at it from both sides.

I do not prevent anyone using terms like he and male on here with me. It was hard at first because nobody has done that for 45 years - so by the time the surprise wore off I understood why you were doing it and it just seemed odd not nasty.

I knew that it was a point of principle - but others might react differently or not care about the principle just as likely.

Of course, they should - as I do - as biological reality exists.

Though it also is not what you normally get addressed by day to day - especially if you have a GRC and altered birth certificate, which does state Sex Female legally. Whether it should or should not. I was surprised they allowed it too with proper medical support.

Though, of course, only a very small number such changed certificates currently exist.

Personally I would still not insist on any words you use because I think that is unfair when it means a lot to you, for valid reasons. It just seems antagonistic to do so.

As a thought why not try to say what you want in a less negative way.

Then it is much harder for someone to seem reasonable when objecting to your post.

Likely some still will but the fact you have made an effort to anyone looking in will give you the upper hand.

So instead of saying - 'that TIM Abigail Talksalot - he is a male person and can you not just see it in everything he says'.

Write 'of course, that Abigail Talksalot will not really be able to understand our argument here , not being a biological female.

Two things saying much the same, but one does it subtly and will be impossible for the trans woman to dispute without looking silly to any reasonable onlooker.

By not overdoing the argument with multiple negative terms that invite an aggressively negative response, you win by subtlety.

React to the second and they will look silly because you made your point clearly whilst taking care not to be overly personal.

SupermatchGame

Good luck with that

The government can put an F on someone's passport, but it can't make other people perceive them as female. Are you understanding the difference, Supermatch? The government can't control people's thoughts because we are not living in an Orwell novel (yet).

Idontdowindows ^Super, men who transition as adults still have the same bone structure and muscles as other men.
It is not up to women to protect men from other men.^

No not the same muscles. Very much degraded muscles. After years of hormone therapy and no testosterone. Hence most professional sports bodies have sanctioned the inclusion of trans women in female sports. Not that I am totally in agreement with that by the way, but that is the case.

And no it's not up to women to protect men from other men. But it is up to society to protect women from men. All women, and that includes vulnerable trans women.

Mumsnet

I don’t think you intend to victimise women who are discussing sex discrimination?

I think you are intending to avoid charges of creating a hostile environment for transgender people.

It is a difficult balance though because to identify sexism and combat it we need to be able to talk about sex and gender. We need to use clear biological language.

I’m less and less inclined to be polite about this. It’s not transphobic or hostile to talk about biological reality. It’s not pleasant for a gender dysphoric person I’m sure but circumstances and what is reasonable should trump someone’s perception.

I’d love to arrange a meeting with mumsnet policy makers here and some feminist lawyers.

Thank you, Jaycee - I like that suggestion a lot. And I really do want to find a way of expressing biological truth without gratuitously hurting people like you. I know trans people in RL, and wouldn't dream of calling them by the wrong pronouns or drawing attention to their biological sex. But I do think it is important in the interests of free speech and political activism to reserve the right to talk about biology without being censored.

JC: there was a compromise. It's been destroyed. Personally I feel that if transexual people had spoken up a lot sooner, instead of arguing with feminists for years, then we wouldn't be quite in this pickle.

Supermatch, I am not sure you even need a GRC to get an F on your passport. I still have mine issued in 1995 and that has an F on it as it was one of the first with that data included. This was 9 years before the GRA was passed.

So it might be that you only needed a medical diagnosis for that to happen and still might. Though most who have one of those will likely have got a GRC as it is the main thing those wanting self ID to come in seem to want to eliminate.

Transsexuality is still a psychiatrically diagnosable condition though isn't it? It is a psychiatrist that will either yay or nay a transition. Treatment is contingent on psychiatric and medical authorisation.

Yes it is. I am polite to transsexuals. I know, and many transsexuals seem to know, that they cannot actually change their sex.

I need to be able to use the word male to describe material reality in some contexts, for clarity.

Watch your chips, there's a massive seagull about.

Paris Lees has an F with no GRC

Seagull?

I think that's very good advice Jaycee

Am I the seagull. Help.

thebewilderness Super it seemed to me that you must not have been here long if you do not know that we do indeed talk about being constantly referred to ans sub male.
So I checked. You came for this and this alone.

Sorry don't know what that means... 'to ans sub male'

That changes my willingness to engage with you.
Oh. Is that my loss, or yours?

Read the boards.

Thanks thebewilderness, I will.

Read the threads.

Ok. Thanks again for the instruction/ permission.

I am not going to wast my time on the same arguments in opposition to women's rights people have been bringing here for years.

I am not in any way opposed to women's rights. I argue for women's rights. But that includes women who have been medically and legally transitioned.

Thanks for that attempt to gaslight me, btw. Nice.

thebewilderness Super it seemed to me that you must not have been here long if you do not know that we do indeed talk about being constantly referred to ans sub male.
So I checked. You came for this and this alone.

Sorry don't know what that means... 'to ans sub male'

That changes my willingness to engage with you.
Oh. Is that my loss, or yours?

Read the boards.

Thanks thebewilderness, I will.

Read the threads.

Ok. Thanks again for the instruction/ permission.

I am not going to wast my time on the same arguments in opposition to women's rights people have been bringing here for years.

I am not in any way opposed to women's rights. I argue for women's rights. But that includes women who have been medically and legally transitioned.

Thanks for that attempt to gaslight me, btw. Nice.