Ooh step back, India Willoughby is going to penetrate the Mumsnet debate

[ALittleBitOfButter]

Just saw on twitter that IW says will do radio interview about Mumsnet. Sorry can't link as on phone.

I feel like I am being psychology abused and controlled from afar -from some not present- by being forced to use someone else's preferred pronouns when it is biologically not true to me.

I avoid problems here on MN by use of Initials and not using pronouns.

It feels like telling lies calling a biological male something I believe they aren't and it hurts my mental health along with my soul.

Why are my religion, philosophy, preferences and mental well-being not thought of as equal to others?

I listened to the radio show with my mouth hanging open. The fact that the host felt the need to explain she would be using her own words before the broadcast is revealing. So much shouting hurt my head though. Glad it was a short segment!

I bet Justine was glad to be on the phone rather than in the studio. One wonders at the atmosphere when they cut to the break? The host did well to try to marshall some sort of two sided debate.

Ohmigod I just checked out some of those CBB clips with IW and Amanda Barrie on youtube. :(

If the first thing that someone new to these issues sees is women deliberately calling transgender people by their birth sex

Then they will realise that there is a large group of people who will not collude with the lies.

"She" means something. It means that the person you are referring to is a woman. A woman is an adult human FEMALE.

Truth and reality are much, much more important than coddling some males' feelings, ESPECIALLY when those feelings are erasing our much needed and hard won protections as women.

I think it would not be long before this too was reported as over the line.

Indeed. Does calling the pronouns preferred not indicate that one is suggesting that they're not the pronouns that one might naturally default to using? Also some trans activists have stated very firmly that they're required, not preferred.

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here but the point I'm trying to make is that we're dealing with a group of people who when others offer them compromise tend to view it as an opportunity to push harder. If the line is shifted, that won't be the end, they will then attempt to push for a new, stricter line. And in the meantime we'll be writing sentences so convoluted that they need an accompanying diagram to make sense of them.

I think it would not be long before this too was reported as over the line.

And that's the trouble with this abusive behaviour - every consession, every line in the sand as we back up to make space is never good enough. I grew up with an abusive, gaslighting father. Every time I gave in, he saw it as a triumph and pushed the boundaries further and further.

Only once I grew old enough to stand up and say "no more" he backed off. I ended up cutting him out of my life entirely, because nothing appeased him. Nothing.

So did I juells and it was upsetting.

The scene around the kitchen island was uncomfortable viewing. Anne widdicombe looked scared.

@AngryAttackKittens

Don't go. Remember my mum. If you can't box hard, box clever.

I also avoid using pronouns.

I respectfully disagree with this:
If the first thing that someone new to these issues sees is women deliberately calling transgender people by their birth sex, then many people, especially if they're younger, will see this as rude and disrespectful

As this issue becomes more public I think the opposite is true - most people I come in to contact with do not understand the terms of the argument insisted upon by trans activists. They use the terms MTF and FTM and transsexual, when they are polite themselves, and far worse when they are not. I think that people using the most up to date terms set by trans activists are a minority and that most people see their language as academic, bourgeois and outside of reality.

If the people in my non feminist circles came here - and many more are becoming aware of this issue every day - they would be more alienated and likely to leave because of the complicated rules around language than because of clearly expressed terms.

I have started to avoid using pronouns if I feel I am expected to use one that I feel uncomfortable about using. I now just keep using the person's name or initials.

I too have a narcissist father, and this sort of gaslighting and constant moving of goalposts and pushing of boundaries is familiar and triggering for me.

If the line is shifted, that won't be the end, they will then attempt to push for a new, stricter line.

That's exactly why I get pissed off when being told TGLWGH.

Hairy I love your poems!!!

I too have a narcissist father, and this sort of gaslighting and constant moving of goalposts and pushing of boundaries is familiar and triggering for me.

I survived terrible EA from the EXH and I find the psychology abuse surrounding this issue very difficult too.

The lies too that we are told, coerced into colluding with by politicians and leaders are against the Teachings of Jesus and I simply can't cope with the lies, as I genuinely fear for my soul if I conclude in this lie against biological fact. If someone doesn't agree with Christianity that is their soul, we have free will. I am not going to do things that I believe will damage my soul.

In the last fifteen years I have seen the goalposts move multiple times.
From transsexual to FTM.
From FTM to transgender for people undergoing transition.
From this to transgender becoming an umbrella term for a dozen different things including fetishists.
From this to transwomen >> trans women because 'trans is a modifier of women like black women or gay women'.
From this to trans women are women.
From this to trans women are female.

The goalposts constantly move.

I am an atheist and don't believe in souls, but I respect your right to do so.

I wish our right not to be compelled to use genderist language could be acknowledged and respected. Especially as it has such huge consequences on women's rights as well as how being compelled to lie (as we see it) causes us emotional distress.

Imagine if you were totally new to this issue, and had just popped over to these boards in an attempt to figure out what was going on. What would "person whose preferred pronoun is she" mean to you? How clear would that be, and how would that kind of language help/hinder your attempts to wrap your head around the issue?

Precisely, RosenbergW

We are left with no language. We are being backed into a corner and made to comply.

I will never call a man "she". Not now. I use initials or their name and avoid pronouns altogether.

I'm over being forced to say things which I don't believe to be true.

An interesting question AAK; I'm not sure since I watched

I find can use pronouns for some; if I find it difficult due to abuse and attitude I use initials.

Come on. These people are not female. It's biologically inaccurate. We have to be able to call them male.

India Willoughby just retweeted a screenshot of a comment from RosenbergW

twitter.com/seXXyLady10/status/985865565502926848

I grew up with an abusive, gaslighting father. Every time I gave in, he saw it as a triumph and pushed the boundaries further and further.

Many years ago I dated a sociopath. Can't say that there were many good things that came out of that relationship, but the one thing that did was an intimate understanding of the way in which abusive people (especially if they have one of the cluster B disorders) attempt to manipulate others, and their relentlessness in doing so, and the related need to maintain firm boundaries. Loosen the boundaries even a little and the manipulative behavior escalates.

And that's the trouble with this abusive behaviour - every consession, every line in the sand as we back up to make space is never good enough. I grew up with an abusive, gaslighting father. Every time I gave in, he saw it as a triumph and pushed the boundaries further and further.

Agree. It is abuse. And they will never be satisfied because it's about power.

Please stay, Kittens!

I'm prepared to avoid pronouns.

I'm prepared to avoid derogatory personal comments about appearance (I doubt I'd make that type of comment anyway, so that one's easy).

I'm prepared to use TIM instead of man, even when the trans person in question is exhibiting behaviour straight off the Duluth wheel.

I'm prepared not be aggressive towards other posters, even if I vehemently disagree with them, not to use ad hominems, etc.

But how can we have sex-based conversations if we can't say male? This, surely, is a line too far. Even fully transitioned people retain their birth sex. They are still as male or as female as the day they were born. We are here for sex-based conversations, for heavens sakes. Even among the pro-TRA voices, the idea that transitioners have actually changed sex is an extreme one.

MNHQ - I think the women here have responded admirably to your request last week for a better quality of debate. And thanks for sticking up for us in public. But we can't have the debate if we can't use the necessary terms.